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 Post subject: Health Care In Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:11 pm 
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Hipster Backlash

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Thought I'd post this. We've talked up the subject many times before and we always, for the most part, come to the conclusion that both systems are wanting.

Canadians Face Long Waits for Health Care

TORONTO (AP) - A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: "If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies."

The patient wasn't dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.

Americans who flock to Canada for cheap flu shots often come away impressed at the free and first-class medical care available to Canadians, rich or poor. But tell that to hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament.

"It's like somebody's telling you that you can buy this car, and you've paid for the car, but you can't have it right now," said Jane Pelton. Rather than leave daughter Emily in pain and a knee brace, the Ottawa family opted to pay $3,300 for arthroscopic surgery at a private clinic in Vancouver, with no help from the government.

"Every day we're paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it's just not there," said Pelton.

The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The system is going broke, says the federation, which campaigns for tax reform and private enterprise in health care.

It calculates that at present rates, Ontario will be spending 85 percent of its budget on health care by 2035. "We can't afford a state monopoly on health care anymore," says Tasha Kheiriddin, Ontario director of the federation. "We have to examine private alternatives as well."

The federal government and virtually every province acknowledge there's a crisis: a lack of physicians and nurses, state-of-the-art equipment and funding. In Ontario, more than 10,000 nurses and hospital workers are facing layoffs over the next two years unless the provincial government boosts funding, says the Ontario Hospital Association, which represents health care providers in the province.

In 1984 Parliament passed the Canada Health Act, which affirmed the federal government's commitment to provide mostly free health care to all, including the 200,000 immigrants arriving each year. The system is called Medicare (no relation to Medicare in the United States).

Despite the financial burden, Canadians value their Medicare as a marker of egalitarianism and independent identity that sets their country apart from the United States, where some 45 million Americans lack health insurance.

Raisa Deber, a professor of health policy at the University of Toronto, believes Canada's system is one of the world's fairest.

"Canadians are very proud of the fact that if they need care, they will get care," she said. Of the United States, she said: "I don't understand how they got to this worship of markets, to the extent that they're perfectly happy that some people don't get the health care that they need."

Canada does not have fully nationalized health care; its doctors are in private practice and send their bills to the government for reimbursement.

"That doctor doesn't have to worry about how you're going to pay the bill," said Deber. "He knows that his bill will be paid, so there's absolutely nothing to stop any doctor from treating anyone."

Deber acknowledges problems in the system, but believes most Canadians get the care they need. She said the federal government should attach more strings to its annual lump-sum allocations to the provinces so that tax dollars are better spent on preventive care and improvements in working conditions for health-care professionals.

In Alberta, a conservative province where pressure for private clinics and insurance is strong, a nonprofit organization called Friends of Medicare has sprung to the system's defense. It points up the inequities in U.S. health care and calls the Canada's "the most moral and the most cost-effective health care system there is in the world." "Is your sick grandchild more deserving of help than your neighbor's grandchild?" It asks.

Yes, says Dr. Brian Day, if that grandchild needs urgent care and can't get it at a government-funded hospital.

Day, an English-born arthroscopic surgeon, founded Cambie Surgery Center in Vancouver, British Columbia - another province where private surgeries are making inroads. He is also former president of the Arthroscopy Association of North America in Orlando, Fla.

He says he got so frustrated at the long delays to book surgeries at the public hospitals in Vancouver that he built his own private clinic. A leading advocate for reform, he testified last June before the Supreme Court in a landmark appeal against a Quebec ruling upholding limits on private care and insurance.

George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and should have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated because Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the option of getting it privately.

A ruling on the case is expected any time.

If Zeliotis had been from the United States, China or neighboring Ontario_ anywhere, in fact, except Quebec - he could have bought treatment in a private Quebec clinic. That's one way the system discourages the spread of private medicine - by limiting it to nonresidents. But it can have curious results, says Day.

He tells of a patient who was informed by Ontario officials that since Ontario couldn't help him, they would spend $35,000 to send him to the United States for surgery.

Day said his Vancouver clinic could have done it for $12,000 but the Ontario officials "do not philosophically support sending an individual to a nongovernment clinic in Canada."

Canadians can buy insurance for dental and eye care, physical and chiropractic therapy, long-term nursing and prescriptions, among other services. But according to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North Korea are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance for hospitalization or surgery.

Meanwhile, the average wait for surgical or specialist treatment is nearly 18 weeks, up from 9.3 weeks in 1993, according to the Fraser Institute, a right-wing public policy think tank in Vancouver. A Fraser study last year said the average wait for an orthopedic surgeon was more than nine months.

Prime Minister Paul Martin's Liberal government has pledged $33.3 billion in new funding to improve health in all provinces and territories over the next 10 years. But critics aren't impressed.

"It won't make a difference," said Sally C. Pipes, a Canadian who heads the conservative Pacific Research Institute in San Francisco. "They need to break the system down, or open the system up to competition."

Pipes is a big supporter of the Bush administration proposal to allow Americans to divert some of their payroll taxes into medical savings accounts. She claims the two-tiered system feared by Canadian liberals already exists because those with connections jump to the head of the medical queue and those who can afford it can get treated in the United States.

"These are not wealthy people; these are people who are in pain," said Pipes.

Another watershed lawsuit was filed last year against 12 Quebec hospitals on behalf of 10,000 breast-cancer patients in Quebec who had to wait more than eight weeks for radiation therapy during a period dating to October 1997.

One woman went to Turkey for treatment. Another, Johanne Lavoie, was among several sent to the United States. Diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 1999, she traveled every week with her 5-year-old son to Vermont, a four-hour bus ride.

"It was an inhuman thing to live through," Lavoie told Toronto's Globe and Mail.

"This is the first time someone has decided to attack the source of problems - the waiting list," said Montreal attorney Michel Savonitto, who is representing the cancer victims. "We're lucky to have the system we do in Canada," he told the court. "But if we want to supply proper care and commit to doing it, then we can't do it halfway."

An estimated 4 million of Canada's 33 million people don't have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association. Meanwhile, some 200 physicians head to the United States each year, attracted by lower taxes and better working conditions. Canada has 2.1 physicians per 1,000 people, while Belgium has 3.9, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France's health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.

Alberta Premier Ralph Klein is pushing what he calls "the third way" - a fusion of Canadian Medicare and the system in France and many other nations, where residents can supplement their government-funded health care with private insurance and services.

But some Canadians worry even partial privatization would be damaging.

"My concern is that the private clinics would only serve to further drain the scarce physician resources that we already have," said Dr. Saralaine Johnstone, a 31-year-old family physician in Geraldton, a papermill hamlet in northern Ontario.

"We first need to guarantee that everybody has access to quality health care," she said, "and we just don't have that."


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:49 pm 
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Street Teamer
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this, like many other topics are so difficult because of the infinite variables effecting everything.

sources (newspapers, think tank agencies) all has a background agenda, and it's easy to spin facts and a story line in any direction.


(from a Canadian)
----------------------

one thing i think people forget:
Thanks to the North American Free Trade Agreement, private companies have access to bid for Government grants in fields that a public system is in place (Heath Care / Education)
Although they can bid, it doesn't mean the Government must funnel public tax money to these private run operations.

second:
Conservative Goverments have an agenda which represent mainly the weathy business community. It's easy for them to support a private run option when they have the money to do so. (we can afford private heath care, we don't need to pay taxes to support public heath care)

third:
The Conservative Government (which had been in power in Ontario for far too long) had easily eroded the public system. This was done quietly and steady by giving grants and money to a private system.
It's not hard to see that once you begin to erode the public system by splitting money to public AND private heath, there's obviously less money going into the public system. Eventually that system starts to fall apart.

The Government has played a game slowly breaking down our public heath care system and then we get to a point were the Government turns around and uses this as a tactic to push for private heath ("our public heath care is no longer working, we need to look at a more private option to pick up the slack) meanwhile, one has to think... of course it's falling apart!!!

There's ins't less money being spent on health care, it's just being divided around (some for public, some for private) and it takes no genious to figure out why our public heath care is suffering.

Another thing the Conservative government has done well is brainwashing people to believe in not paying taxes, paying less taxes.. more money in your pocket!!!!! Vote for us, and get a tax rebate!
Well the less you tax, the worse the social net will be.


Private companies, be it manufacturing, clothing, software, education, drugs or heath care....... they are in the business for making money. Making a profit, not because they 'care' about the people, or making the world a better place. Heath Care shouldn't be about profit, nor should Education.


last thing.

Private Run Heath Care is NOT subject to the Canada Health Act.


just my, too many cents....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:11 pm 
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I just find it amazing how any country outside the United States can look at our private system and think it is a fantastic opportunity for their country. There are some things that should be public (education, health care, military) and there are some things that should be private (candy industry, shoe factories). I know that I come off as a libby anarchist fag, but I'm pretty reasonable when it comes to politics if people are willing to discuss the issues. Just because I read Chomsky all the time doesn't mean I believe the country should be turned into a kibbutz, and I hope followers of Friedman are rational enough to believe that the economy can't and shouldn't be a pure, deregulated jungle.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:16 pm 
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Borg166 Wrote:
I just find it amazing how any country outside the United States can look at our private system and think it is a fantastic opportunity for their country.


You can't see someone who has to wait three years to get their knee fixed for free and realizes they could get it done tomorrow for a few grand in another country wishing they had the other system? At all? I mean, theoretically, yes, it would be nice for everyone to have free health care. But looking at the scenarios described, you can't see why these people would prefer privitization at all?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:22 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
You can't see someone who has to wait three years to get their knee fixed for free and realizes they could get it done tomorrow for a few grand in another country wishing they had the other system? At all? I mean, theoretically, yes, it would be nice for everyone to have free health care. But looking at the scenarios described, you can't see why these people would prefer privitization at all?


Their public system works, it's just that the conservative government is fucking it up, as blotter has pointed out.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:25 pm 
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frostingspoon
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Wow, you are truly a fundamentalist liberal. Do you truly believe that the only way for a social program to fail is through the intervention of conservative interests?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:30 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
Wow, you are truly a fundamentalist liberal. Do you truly believe that the only way for a social program to fail is through the intervention of conservative interests?


I believe that if something works, you shouldn't try to dismantle it. That's all I'm saying.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:35 pm 
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But the article's point is how can a 3-year wait for a knee surgery be classified as a working health care system?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:55 pm 
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Sketch Wrote:
But the article's point is how can a 3-year wait for a knee surgery be classified as a working health care system?


I can answer this one. The person with the knee injury isn't in a life threatening situtation. What happened in the article in the first post is a real rarity in the Canadian health system (I'm Canadian by the way). If you have a serious condition that needs medical treatment right away, you usually get it. You rarely have to wait long in the emergency room or the waitlist if you need something desperately. Most people are willing to accept this, knowing that, although we sometimes need to wait for treatment, we get it for free and usually at a high quality. It's a traditional socialist value, sacrifice the needs of the individual to help the community as a whole. I myself had to wait 4 months to have my gallbladder out. Although it was uncomfortable, it wasn't going to kill me, so no harm, no foul I say.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:06 pm 
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It's not a perfect system, but I can say that in my own family, whenever there has been an urgent need, the wait time has been totally acceptable. that goes for imaging procedures as well, which is one of the biggest waits around. I do see why people would like to have the option of private clinics, however.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:08 pm 
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having to wait 3 years for a knee surgery can have serious, serious ramifications - further degeneration of the knee, problems working, etc, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:41 pm 
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It's definitely a tough issue, and there are pros and cons to both the American and Canadian systems. We have the best health care in the world with the most technology, but some people can't get it because of the cost. The Canadian system ensures that everybody gets health care, but the quality suffers as a result. The perfect system probably lies somewhere in the middle. I am a supporter of universal health care, but can't think of a good way to keep the high quality and provide it for everybody.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 pm 
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let me just add:

it's not about being against private health care.
which is what the politicians and media get us hyped about.

I think the issue at hand is public tax paying money going to private institutions that do not serve the general public. If public money never once got spilled over to the private clinics perhaps we would never be wondering about why our public health care is getting worse.

i think it's really that simple. public money should stay in the public's circle.

but i'm certainly no expert.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:32 am 
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Borg166 Wrote:
HaqDiesel Wrote:
You can't see someone who has to wait three years to get their knee fixed for free and realizes they could get it done tomorrow for a few grand in another country wishing they had the other system? At all? I mean, theoretically, yes, it would be nice for everyone to have free health care. But looking at the scenarios described, you can't see why these people would prefer privitization at all?


Their public system works, it's just that the conservative government is fucking it up, as blotter has pointed out.


Had to jump in here. The federal government is in charge of ALL health care funding, it transfers the money to the provinces who are responsible for delivery. The Liberals have been in power for 15 years and have steadily cut the amount of money available to the provinces over that period of time. Yes the Conservatives were in power in Ontario for 2 full terms, and yes health care delivery deteriorated during that time, but that Conservative provincial government faced unprecedented cuts from the feds over that time. Now there is a Liberal government in power in Ontario, and even with a new health care tax they have levied, the delivery crisis is worse than ever. To blame "Conservative" governments for any Canadian health care crisis is disingenuous. lets place the blame for the health care crisis where it belongs, squarely in the lap of the Liberal federal government.

It is obvious that the amount of money the federal government provides is inadequate to fund the cost of health care, plus even considering any "private" delivery is anathema to most Canadians, (though not this one). The problem is health care is this sacred cow in Canada, because it perpetuates the great Canadian myth of moral superiority over the United States.

My mother, 73 years old, moved to a new city 2.5 years ago. She can't find a GP who will accept her as a patient. What good is "free" health care if it is rationed so severly that you can't actually get service?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:46 am 
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Well it obvious that both systems are flawed. The best system is obviously something of a hybrid.

I do believe that public healthcare in the UK was totally fucked as well. My college roommates dad worked for a consulitng firm that was trying to get their budgetary problems in check. They were having a hell of a time as I remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Health Care In Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:00 pm 
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DunwoodyDude Wrote:
The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France's health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.

I read the article again and was reminded of the fact that about 2 years ago thousands died in France during a severe heat wave simply because Parisian buildings(this includes hospitals) typically lack airconditioning!

Congrats to France for providing such great health care, but that is fucked up!

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:59 pm 
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Ok, new rule: If 40 million of your citizens don't have health insurance, 11 million of those being children, you're not allowed to be snarky about some dude in Canada waiting a few weeks to get his knee checked out, aight?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Logan Wrote:
Ok, new rule: If 40 million of your citizens don't have health insurance, 11 million of those being children, you're not allowed to be snarky about some dude in Canada waiting a few weeks to get his knee checked out, aight?


Spoken like someone with good health insurance.

What is remarkable about this thread is the fact that most responses have come from Canadian boarders.

To wit:

3 years is an unnaceptable amount of time to wait for a necessary operation; so is three months.

Whether it be a national system or an American style system; people deserve the health care that they pay for.....

For me personally, I am overcharged and undercovered because I happen to live the "American Dream"----I am a partner in a small, built from scratch, family business......Despite that, I get the coverage I need when I need it.

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