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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Gayford R. Tincture

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paper Wrote:

point taken, I need to remember to measure my words on here more often.


I think you mean to say "measure my words here more carefully".


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 2:56 pm 
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Gayford R. Tincture

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billy g Wrote:
I don't like Patton Oswalt so I didn't watch that video clip. I have a hard time equating a joke as having the same level of uniqueness and protectability as a book or song if only because it seems much more easy to think that two people would have coincidentally came up with the same joke. That said, if you think that a joke or routine is uniquely his, I think you're wrong to say someone else using it without permission is not theft. I'm not going to argue it has the same level of harm as stealing all of someone's physical belongings and financial assets but taking something owned by someone else without their permission is the very definition of theft.


It's one thing to say someone stole a joke if they just took the basic concept and reworked it just a tad, maybe to fit their own style or a slightly altered subject matter. This guy was reciting Patton Oswalt routines verbatim. Like he'd sat studying Oswalt's albums and measured out all of the pauses and everything (only to do an incredibly weak job of recreating them, and also to the effect of making himself look pretty out of touch for talking about KFC's Famous Bowls as if they were some current phenomenon). It's pretty damn close to lifting a whole song from someone and calling it your own if you ask me.

But I do agree with Haq, essentially, that this nobody hardly deserved to be raked through the coals so mercilessly for something he never would really have gotten away with anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Can you copyright jokes?

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:13 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:18 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
paper Wrote:

point taken, I need to remember to measure my words on here more often.


I think you mean to say "measure my words here more carefully".


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
I don't like Patton Oswalt so I didn't watch that video clip. I have a hard time equating a joke as having the same level of uniqueness and protectability as a book or song if only because it seems much more easy to think that two people would have coincidentally came up with the same joke. That said, if you think that a joke or routine is uniquely his, I think you're wrong to say someone else using it without permission is not theft. I'm not going to argue it has the same level of harm as stealing all of someone's physical belongings and financial assets but taking something owned by someone else without their permission is the very definition of theft.


It's one thing to say someone stole a joke if they just took the basic concept and reworked it just a tad, maybe to fit their own style or a slightly altered subject matter. This guy was reciting Patton Oswalt routines verbatim. Like he'd sat studying Oswalt's albums and measured out all of the pauses and everything (only to do an incredibly weak job of recreating them, and also to the effect of making himself look pretty out of touch for talking about KFC's Famous Bowls as if they were some current phenomenon). It's pretty damn close to lifting a whole song from someone and calling it your own if you ask me.

But I do agree with Haq, essentially, that this nobody hardly deserved to be raked through the coals so mercilessly for something he never would really have gotten away with anyway.


Like I said I didn't watch it so I couldn't take a stand on it specifically.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Gayford R. Tincture

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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Can you copyright jokes?


You can copyright recorded material, right? I'd guess that's part of the advantage of comedians putting out albums is that they can have a physical record dating to a specific time of them doing their material and have that material copyrighted as it appears on the album.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Can you copyright jokes?


You can copyright recorded material, right? I'd guess that's part of the advantage of comedians putting out albums is that they can have a physical record dating to a specific time of them doing their material and have that material copyrighted as it appears on the album.


But that really only prevents someone from broadcasting said recording, right? It seems that telling another person's joke is akin to covering someone artist's song, which isn't illegal so long as there's a royalty mechanism in place. Difference being musicians/recording artists have ASCAP/BMI/SESAC on their side to spread royalties around and (in theory) level things out. But I have no idea if comedians have any of that protection/representation.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:35 pm 
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Thee Incident Wrote:
Drinky Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Can you copyright jokes?


You can copyright recorded material, right? I'd guess that's part of the advantage of comedians putting out albums is that they can have a physical record dating to a specific time of them doing their material and have that material copyrighted as it appears on the album.


But that really only prevents someone from broadcasting said recording, right? It seems that telling another person's joke is akin to covering someone artist's song, which isn't illegal so long as there's a royalty mechanism in place. Difference being musicians/recording artists have ASCAP/BMI/SESAC on their side to spread royalties around and (in theory) level things out. But I have no idea if comedians have any of that protection/representation.


Yes, you can copyright jokes (assuming they are enough words to meet the threshold, which is not set in stone).

And sound recordings and the underlying work (i.e. song or joke) are really two different things, although definitely related. Plus, there are compulsory license provisions for musical works, but not others, and I assume a stand-up comedy album would not fall within the compulsory license provisions, but I am not positive.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:08 pm 
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frostingspoon
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billy g Wrote:
I'd imagine 70 years after the author dies is meant to preserve the economic rights for the author AND his/her living heirs. Isn't the american way to try to build a nest egg for our children?


This is a given justification yes, although the influence of the entertainment industry has had a demonstrably greater effect than economic theory on copyright terms. Most people build nest eggs by investing the money they make in their lifetimes. I see no particular justification for giving a free ride to the children of people who make things that happen to be copyrightable for a living and not to other people who do equally valuable work.

Quote:
Philosophically though, I might ask why shouldn't the copyright be permanent? If a publishing company is going to continuing printing and selling classical works, why shouldn't an author's heirs be compensated? Patent law to me is an entirely different animal. Literary or musical works don't build on each other in the same way that scientific advancements do.


Because the marginal benefit to "science and the useful arts" gained by giving an author's great great great grandson royalties is outweighed by the benefit to the public in having unrestricted access to that work. And I simply disagree that works of music and literature don't borrow from past works.

Quote:
I think a large part of the reasoning behind the expiration of patents is that the discoveries have become part of basic scientific knowledge at some point. Again though, I think your views of the public interest are simplistic and narrowly defined. Private property rights are at the core of capitalism and the level of their legal protection is one of the greatest differentiators between first world economies and third world economies.


It's no use substituting my simplistic view of the public interest with one so broad as "more property rights means more stable society." Tell me why giving the heirs of authors an exclusive right to the author's work benefits anyone but the heir.

Quote:
I'm not going to argue that there aren't gray areas in what should be protected but I think we should be erring on the side of favoring patentees.


I might agree with you if our system did a better job of deciding who is rightfully a patentee. But if people can easily get patents who don't deserve them, then ratcheting up penalties for infringement is harmful and retrogressive. And that's the situation we're in.

Quote:
I also disagree with the distinction you seem to be making between product inventions and the application of new scientific knowledge. Most products at their core consist of some combination of raw materials that are not patentable on their own. Its the unique manufacturing process or combinatorial chemistry which makes them patentable.


Agreed, a new process is patentable even if its components are not. I never said anything else. But when you say "gene therapy" when I said "patents on isolated genes," you confuse the issue and are talking about something entirely different. A gene therapy may well be patentable. But what the USPTO and courts allowed to go on for years, until the SDNY recently put a (preliminary) stop to it, was the patenting of gene sequences isolated from the human genome. The sequences are found in nature and the method for isolating them was not invented by the patentee, but if using that process you isolated some gene sequence and could name some function for that gene sequence, you got a patent. No doubt, the isolated gene sequences were useful, but they were not a new process, an invention, or a new composition of matter, so they weren't patentable under the law. And yet.

Quote:
How is gene therapy or software that different? In the short term, the public might be better if we changed the law to allow people to use Windows or MS Office for free but would society be better off if Microsoft had not had the profit motive to create the software to begin with?


Software is well protected by copyright. Microsoft did not apply for any software patents until after the height of its success (Windows 95), and Bill Gates wrote a memo a long time ago saying that patents on software would only impede innovation in the software industry. Then other companies started getting patents, and Microsoft saw that without a patent portfolio of its own, it would be exposed to patent risk from other companies seeking to freeride on its success, so it got some (a metric fuckton of) patents primarily for defensive purposes. And then, as Microsoft became bloated and stopped innovating, and its profits declined, it started using those patents aggressively. And that's how it goes with software patents -- those who can no longer innovate litigate.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:21 pm 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:

Quote:
I'm not going to argue that there aren't gray areas in what should be protected but I think we should be erring on the side of favoring patentees.


I might agree with you if our system did a better job of deciding who is rightfully a patentee. But if people can easily get patents who don't deserve them, then ratcheting up penalties for infringement is harmful and retrogressive. And that's the situation we're in.


How would you decide it? I don't like everything about the patent system and the USPTO either, but it's easy to bitch without solutions.

I will agree there are patents out there that should not have been granted, but to say it's "easy" to get a patent is bogus. You obviously have never tried to prosecute a patent application, especially since the Supreme Court ruling of KSR v. Teleflex.

Quote:
Software is well protected by copyright.


How so? What if the steps the software is taking is the truly unique part of the software? If someone comes up with a slightly different way of writing the software, but the software takes the same steps in execution, copyright does nothing to protect it.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Stone Wrote:
How so? What if the steps the software is taking is the truly unique part of the software? If someone comes up with a slightly different way of writing the software, but the software takes the same steps in execution, copyright does nothing to protect it.


Yes, and that's good. Much of the software industry is innovating rapidly without resorting to patent rights. It's usually good enough to be the best at what you're doing. If you stop doing that, I don't care if you don't make any money.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:53 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:42 pm 
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frostingspoon
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joy division lol

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:54 pm 
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I'll leave the details of the software and gene isolation for you and Stone to debate. I'd guess that I still disagee with you but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the matter to understand the distinctions you and stone disagree on.

I fundamentally disagree with you here though:

HaqDiesel Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
I'd imagine 70 years after the author dies is meant to preserve the economic rights for the author AND his/her living heirs. Isn't the american way to try to build a nest egg for our children?


This is a given justification yes, although the influence of the entertainment industry has had a demonstrably greater effect than economic theory on copyright terms. Most people build nest eggs by investing the money they make in their lifetimes. I see no particular justification for giving a free ride to the children of people who make things that happen to be copyrightable for a living and not to other people who do equally valuable work.

Quote:
Philosophically though, I might ask why shouldn't the copyright be permanent? If a publishing company is going to continuing printing and selling classical works, why shouldn't an author's heirs be compensated? Patent law to me is an entirely different animal. Literary or musical works don't build on each other in the same way that scientific advancements do.


Because the marginal benefit to "science and the useful arts" gained by giving an author's great great great grandson royalties is outweighed by the benefit to the public in having unrestricted access to that work. And I simply disagree that works of music and literature don't borrow from past works.

Quote:
I think a large part of the reasoning behind the expiration of patents is that the discoveries have become part of basic scientific knowledge at some point. Again though, I think your views of the public interest are simplistic and narrowly defined. Private property rights are at the core of capitalism and the level of their legal protection is one of the greatest differentiators between first world economies and third world economies.


It's no use substituting my simplistic view of the public interest with one so broad as "more property rights means more stable society." Tell me why giving the heirs of authors an exclusive right to the author's work benefits anyone but the heir.


It seems to me you may have a problem in general with inherited wealth. You point out that most people build an nest egg by investing their life's earnings. What makes it moral for someone to pass down stock generation to generation but not the right to royalties? A great great great grandson should be able to receive dividends from stock he inherited that was granted as compensation to his great great great grandfather as part of his compensation as a middle manager? It seems to me to be a very similar scenario. What has he done to earn the windfall and would society have been better served if it was confiscated several generations and used for the public good? I hope that would seem repugnant to you but I don't see any real distinction from a public policy perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:57 pm 
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"compensation as a middle manager" - nparis07 and mparis10 are really banking on this.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 7:55 pm 
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so is promethium dead?

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:08 pm 
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rparis74 Wrote:
so is promethium dead?


Isn't this the downtime for Nebraska sports? No football, no basketball. Is their baseball team doing anything?

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:30 pm 
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rparis74 Wrote:
so is promethium dead?


his last post on April 23rd included this

promethium Wrote:
You're all unbelievably lucky my hard drive died at my home computer.


I assume this might have something to do with it. Guess the pee party got out of hand.


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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 8:44 pm 
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they probably finally had enough and threw him in jail.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:50 am 
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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:27 am 
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billy g Wrote:
I'll leave the details of the software and gene isolation for you and Stone to debate. I'd guess that I still disagee with you but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the matter to understand the distinctions you and stone disagree on.



Just a quick note as someone who works near-ish the gene therapy stuff... Aaron is correct in saying that what was until recently allowed to be patented were somebody's naturally occurring genes. Company X didn't create them, and they isolated (found) them using someone else's method and tools, but they were allowed to claim any and all future use of said genes as theirs because they were the first to accurately and completely describe it... like it was a country they landed on. Essentially they were allowed to claim fundamental building blocks as their exclusive property, and from what I can see behind the curtain there is no honest reason for this other than profit protection, at the direct expense of innovation.

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:57 am 
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HaqDiesel Wrote:
Stone Wrote:
How so? What if the steps the software is taking is the truly unique part of the software? If someone comes up with a slightly different way of writing the software, but the software takes the same steps in execution, copyright does nothing to protect it.


Yes, and that's good. Much of the software industry is innovating rapidly without resorting to patent rights. It's usually good enough to be the best at what you're doing. If you stop doing that, I don't care if you don't make any money.


Yes, there is rapid innovation, and patent rights have helped that too. I just don't understand the stance you seem to be promoting where the government would say to software companies and software engineers, "Sure, you are doing great, innovative work and pushing technology forward, but you don't deserve patent rights. The pharmaceutical companies and even Joe Blow who developed a new golf bag cover are entitled to patent protection on their inventions, but you're not. Yeah, we know it's an arbitrary dividing line, but that's the way the cookie crumbles."

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 Post subject: Re: MAY RANDOM
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:03 am 
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