FT hates me now but I think of Ginobli as a role player and not an upper tier player you'd build a team around. So I guess we just disagree on that.

Ok, so what about about Utah? How is it that they attract free agents and manage to keep players? Portland, another micro market, not only attracts players but has bailed itself out of salary cap hell twice since the Knicks were last relevant. Until very recently, the Pacers were an elite team in the league.

None of those are major markets yet they manage to attract players, fans and win games.

Why then can't Durant and Westbrook be the Stockton and Malone of OKC?

Also, re: Ginobli, he might not be the kind of player that you'd "build a team around" but then neither was Scottie Pippen and he was once considered one of the five best players in the league.

And not for nothing, but if I needed to win one playoff game, I'd go to war with Manu Ginobli over Scottie Pippen 10/10.

in the past 20 years or so, the blazers have signed very few elite free agents in their prime. we have been able to pick up some important pieces here and there in trades and have done a pretty good job in the draft (other than some really obvious mistakes........................). however, we are just not going to generally be players in trying to get guys like lebron, wade, etc. but, where possible we have been able to convince some good players to come here due to having a good owner and generally being a winner...even though Portland is just about the last place in the country a 25 year old black millionaire wants to spend their time.

Oh, and while I am at it, Dragic > Ginobili.

this suns/spurs series is making me feel better about the trailblazer's performance in round 1.

One game isn't a trend, professor. As Bloor said, Manu's still got a season or two more of foxhole-level ability in him.

Assuming they're out in another game or two, I'm at a loss as to where San Antonio goes from here. Four guys with big cap numbers, three of whom are clearly declining in either skills or dependability and one of those (Jefferson @ $14M) who's been an outright turd.
They need to sign or draft a young-ish center of some dependable pedigree so they're not leaning so heavily on Duncan and start handing the keys over to George Hill and DeJuan Blair (who could be an absolute monster if he dropped 15-20 pounds).

This Phx/SA series is uncanny..

No one could have predicted the Suns to dismantle the Spurs like this, let alone with the damage being done by Dragic, Frye, and Jared Fucking Dudley.

don't forget Grant Hill.

Well that doesn't surpise me so much.

Jared Dudley, on the other hand, would be hard pressed to average 8 ppg in the goddamn second division New Zealand Basketball League...

You're getting closer. Still, Stockton was much more of a pure point guard (even if he might be the best pure point guard ever) and as a result needed Malone much more than Westbrook needs to play with someone like Durant. Plus, the fact that guys like Stockton and Malone chose to play together doesn't mean that it will ever happen again. Sample size. I think rogneeb gives the answer to some of these examples. Small market teams can retain some complementary players and attract some new ones. You can buy out a few years of free agency but if a guy is truly one of the elite players, he is usually going to want to be THE MAN on his team with a contract to match, preferrably for a large market team.

I think you're nuts to prefer Ginobli to Pippen and I'd agree with you that Pippen was "considered one of the top five players" at some point. But he wasn't ever considered that by me. In a way Pippen is the ultimate complementary player. His overall game was so good that his value to a team is undisputed and it seems like an insult to consider him less than a star. Still, I'd never be comfortable relying on him as THE GUY to take the shot and whoever voted him as one of the top 50 players ever in the NBA should have had their press credentials immediately revoked.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Well, we DO agree on the Pippen being a mirage thing...I remember people referring to him as the second best player in the league at one point and while he was certainly a very good player, his "great" status was directly attributable to playing with Jordan.

Magic is the pretty clear consensus as "best point guard ever" and that's so obvious, the only argument against it is the "pure" part. Hope the "pure" part doesn't mean white guy in short shorts, 'cause I can't think why Magic wasn't "pure' as a point guard in any sense. But even excluding Magic because he could also play center, did you ever see Oscar Robertson in his prime?

Pippen was great, or had great moments, but he isn't even the best sixth man in history....Havlicek, McHale... and Ginobili can do the sixth man thing (changing the dynamic of a game in a positive way just by coming in...) as well as anyone today and probably more than Pippen. Yail Bloor on a split decision on this one.

Harry,

Yeah I agree that Magic was the best I saw. Too young to have Oscar Robertson. What I meant by pure is not just a pass first guy but a pass first, second and third guy. Not to say that Stockton had no shot or couldn't drive the lane and score when you weren't expecting it but ultimately his value was much more limited to his playmaking ability than today's best point guards or Magic. With the game on the line, Stockton still isn't looking to take the shot. Stockton isn't going to be THE MAN. He's looking to get the ball to the man. I think its a relevant point to his staying in Utah and how that relates to the OKC core staying together long term.

I've spent more time defending my original comment about it being hard for OKC to keep this team in tact. I'll probably bow out now. GO LAKERS.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Your point about Stockton is of course spot-on. He obviously looked to pass first, and, as you said, usually second and third, too. But what made me such a huge fan of Stockton is that aside from making everyone on his team better, he really did have an offensive game of his own and could step up when needed. I mean, the guy shot over 50% from the field and 40% from three for his career. And, unlike Malone, he was huge in the clutch.

And, for the record, you can go ahead and put his assist record in the "unbreakable" category - especially with the evolution of the point guard position. I mean, find me another statistical category in major pro sports that really matters where the record holder (Stockton) has 50% more of whatever that thing is (assists) than the #2 guy in the same category. Absolutely ridiculous.

is orlando that good or atlanta that bad?

Both.

I think Isiah Thomas was a better "pure" point guard than even Magic though Magic was obviously a better overall player, could play all five positions and do things that nobody in history could do.

SPipp was not a 6th man, and while he needed Jordan to transcend merely awesome, he carried that 94 squad to the Eastern Conference Finals before that epic STB when Phil didn't make the call for him to take the final shot.

I would take Pippen over probably 90% of the players in the league right now. And, all y'all that value defense, he was a fucking MONSTER on D as well.

Don't lose the forest for the trees.

Why would Pippen be a candidate for best sixth man in history?

Yeah, Pippen was not a 6, but the conversation was comparing him to Manu, who is... placement for the sake of argument.

Too bad Kobe is too old and can't play anymore, eh?

put it this way, the Patriots would have cut bait with him this year.

Talk to me in June.

The Spurs almost getting swept by the Suns actually makes me kinda sad.

I was hoping they'd be a dark horse contender this year.

But they really need a center, baaaad.

Still, nothing would make me happier than them being the first team to come back from a 3-zip hole and taking this thing, but for the first time in a long time, Phoenix has a decent coach in Alvin Gentry.

And in an unrelated note, Lebron James has become the single player I love watching fail more than anyone in perhaps the history of the game.