Cleveland won more regular season games than everyone. It's not the most reliable measuring stick.

Of course Phoenix are gonna win regular season games. They always do. It's what they're built for. But the fact is, even with renewed focus, they only play defense in stretches, and in Nash and Stoudemire, have two enormous liabilities on that end of the floor.

Robin Lopez has been solid this year, but his absence is hardly the gaping hole that some of the other injured teams have had to deal with.

Hmm. Basketball is a game of match-ups, both in terms of personnel and style/strategy, right? One reason the Celtics-Lakers final has potential to be epic, beyond the narrative of the history of the two franchises.

While it's true that Phoenix has had the benefit of encountering injured and old (Duncan) teams, it's wrong to dis their ability and the way they are playing to their capacity now. They need to get rid of Amare and Nash is prolly gonna decline next year, but there have been moments when they've been beautiful to watch this playoff. I would not be at all surprised if they win the next two games - although Kobe in Revenge of Khan mode might override it. Kobe really has the will to win unlike mere mortals, and some year all the Kobe-hate will acknowledge his huge heart, not just bemoan his tendency to gun and begrudgingly acknowledge his physical gifts and work ethic.

today: phoenix 112, lakers 110.

Much much worse? I mean, I remember that post-Jordan hangover era and it wasn't very good but at least there was the possibility of a fight (Heat/Knicks). I mean, is a 66-62 sloppy game better or worse than a 40 point blow out in the playoffs where fans turn it off in the 2nd quarter? I say better than the crap we've seen this year.

Here were some of my thoughts about this league that I tossed about in my head during a 5 hour drive from Charleston yesterday.

There have been only 8 teams win the NBA Championship since 1980. EIGHT. Celtics, Lakers, Rockets, Spurs, Pistons, Bulls, Sixers, and the Heat. Only the Heat and Sixers were one time winners. By comparison here are the number of different teams to win championships in other sports:

NFL - 15
NHL - 13
MLB - 18
College Football - 21

Coincidentally 1980 was around the time David Stern took on an executive role and taking over completely in '84. But, the majority are major market teams save Houston and San Antonio and they're still in the top half of the league as far as a market. Does this bother anyone? I mean, if I'm a fan of a small market team, why am I buying season tickets when all statistics point to the fact that I will never win a Championship? I think this Lebron James free agency is a pivotal moment in the NBA. If he leaves and goes elsewhere, he is essentially saying that I can't win in Cleveland. He might as well say, I can't win a championship in a small market. I mean, if I'm Warriors, Grizzlies, Kings, Timberwolves, etc fan, why should I even bother?

Even the way the league is marketed would lead you to believe that unless 2 major market teams are in the Finals, the NBA Finals are somehow a waste of time. Even comments in this thread have said as much if it were to be a Magic/Suns final. I realize that the NBA markets it's stars but can you imagine people ever saying that about 2 teams in the Super Bowl. No, because the NFL markets better and has more parity. It's also why I think the NBA markets like crazy towards kids because they have to get 'em young.

I fully acknowledge that the NBA isn't in my top 5 sports although I do pull for the Hawks. I think my thoughts on this started after watching the Hawks get decimated by the Magic. We've waited years to have a competitive team and then to get to that 2nd round to see how far a Championship is away is disheartening as it is for most teams in this league. The numbers show that the game isn't necessarily rigged but the deck is certainly stacked.

Don't get me started on what it's done to the college game.

I actually think that Kobe IS properly respected by all but a very small minority--I mean, who's dissing Kobe at this point? Despite not being personally likable AT ALL he is somehow one of the 2-3 most popular players in this country and arguably the most popular player in the world. That he (and by extension the easily chafed Lakers fan) still believe him to be not respected or considered one of the all time greats is some Zen Master bullshit to keep him hungry.

two points that I disagree with in this argument. first the point about league parity - The nba has had something like 17 different teams in the finals in the past 30 years, whereas the nfl has had something like 26. That kind of makes sense because in a one-and-done format, someone has a good game and the other guy's season is over, but in a 7 game format, the statistical anomalies usually work out and the best team wins (often the team with the best player). It sucks for Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing that they played in the jordan era, but they did. It sucks for Boomer that he played against Montana, but tough shit, way it goes. Basketball just by nature allows one player to control the game if he's good enough, and Jordan was good enough, Shaq was good enough, Duncan was good enough (somehow). i'm not arguing with the way it worked out, but I think it happened independent of league economics, not because of them.

Also, you atlanta guys deliberately misunderstand this, and I don't know why, but you've got to get it through your heads- the NFL is a big deal here, and that's all it is and all it will ever be. It's not the highest watched sporting event- the world cup final will likely double the super bowl viewership this year. The NBA is trying to compete with soccer, and formula 1 racing, and tennis, and probably cricket and rugby and whatever else the english left in their colonies that I've never heard of, but in terms of worldwide audience they've long ago left behind [the idea of competing with] the NFL. So I can't get behind the idea that the NFL markets better- they're not, in any way, playing the same game.

You're a reasonable and intelligent man Bloor. Many are less reasonable and let their personal feelings toward Kobe bleed into their evaluation of his game. Just look at all the people who blamed Kobe for not making players like Devean George, Chris Mihm, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Chucky Atkins better.

Since when is Houston not a major market. It's the fourth largest city (only NY, LA, and Chicago are bigger) and the 6th largets metropoliana area (those 3 plus philly and dallas/ft worth). Basketball more than any other sport is a superstar driven sport which makes sense because teams only have five players on the field at once. Also, as Chase mentioned, the length of the playoffs tends to limit the ability for great upsets.

Yep, indeed. i enjoy Bloor's (usually) clear-eyed critical thinking. But I think he's allowed his own reasonable response to Kobe to color the way he thinks most of the world outside LA think about Kobe. Up here in the bay area I am regularly annoyed by the depth and intensity of the Kobe hate.

I think we're in the same ballpark. Only thing I'd point out is that Shaq did have to go to the Lakers to get a ring. But, the Lakers playing in the Finals 15 out of 30 years? That's only good for Lakers fans. Terrible for business. I agree with you about 1 player being able to control the game which is also a detriment to the game as a whole IMO. I mean, in Jordan's prime there was no genius way to build a team to beat him.



I get that but in the end these leagues are out to make money yes? The NFL stills destroys the NBA. F1, English Premier League, MLB, and others still out earn the NBA. While I think they have certainly raised the popularity of the sport worldwide it still remains to be seen how they will capitalize on this monetarily. We could look back 25 years from now as this era being a pandora's box where the future sees the Lebron James's of the world going to Europe or elsewhere.

In the end, I guess I just need to accept the fact that I will never truly become some die hard NBA fan. Mostly for many of the reasons I've talked about.

It ranks somewhere around 10th or 11th in tv markets. I suppose that's still a major market but not as big as the others I listed to have won championships. That's just being nitpicky.

As for upsets, this may be a terrible analogy but hockey has a similar playoffs and upsets happen every year in every round it seems.

The playoffs this year have been terrible with sweeps all over the place in the NBA while there have been multiple 7 game series in the Stanley Cup. I realize one year is a small sample size but the casual basketball fan has been given shit this year and the casual hockey fan is getting some amazing drama.

I know that may be apples and oranges but it's still 6 on 6. Pro against pro. I actually love the re-seeding in the Stanley Cup. That could be a reason as well. The NBA goes to a 2-3-2 series after going 2-2-1-1-1 all through early rounds. WTF?

Overall, I greatly prefer the NBA to the NFL. Of course I'm probably just about alone in that assessment.

I feel like we've been over this before but just to refresh, the Top Ten TV markets:

1. New York
2. LA
3. Chicago
4. San Francisco
5. Dallas/FW
6. Houston/Galveston
7. Atlanta
8. Philadelphia
9. DC/Baltimore
10. Boston

As for Kobe, I'm basing my opinion here on two factors:

1. What I hear on TV, the radio and read on the internet by actual basketball people. The guy gets massive respect and look, I'll be the first to admit that it's a fairly recent development, basically a four pronged convergence since the beatdown at the hands of Boston two years ago (a dip in Kobe's stock for sure) of A. leading the Olympic team in '08 B. winning a Shaq-less championship last year C. playing a better team game since Pau arrived (directly correlation with A & B) and D. the stink of that Colorado thing finally wearing off.

2. The people, always listen to the people. Kobe still No. 1 in NBA jersey sales

Like I said, the two best teams are gonna face off in the finals anyway. It's gonna be good.

Derris, all your vitriol has risen out of the fact that the Hawks got knocked out earlier than you would like, no? Correct me if i'm wrong, but I'd go as far to say Atlanta isn't exactly a small market.

The fact that Lebron might leave Cleveland will have nothing to do with the market, it will have to do with whether he thinks the organisation can deliver a roster and coach that can win a title. They've been unable to do that. When you look at the roster, outside of Lebron, it's really expensive (because they waste money on players they don't use, and double up on areas while overlooking others) and rather, well, bad:

Shaq (He's 38)
Jamison (Good for twenty points per game on a twenty win per season team)
Lebron James (One of the best players in the league)
Anthony Parker (Can shoot the three and nothing else. A serviceable defender. Not an NBA starter)
Mo Williams (May as well have Larry Hughes running the circus. A terrible point guard)

And then a bench who, outside of Varejao, brings nothing to the table.

This is an expensive ballclub. The fact they can't win a title has nothing to do with the market.


Now I'm no expert, but could i be right in saying there are more upsets in hockey because of the nature of the game? Like soccer, you don't need to score a tonne to win. A few lucky, early goals and you can seal a victory.

That, and a goalie can get hot at the right time and literally propel his team through the playoffs.

No Mick. It's true that I was disappointed at the Hawks debacle but their recent success has had me looking at the NBA closer for the first time in years over the last couple of seasons. To suggest I'm just bitter about them losing is to miss my entire point.

Fuck the term "small market" or "big market". Insert what you want in to the argument, say "storied franchise" or whatever. The fact is that teams like the Lakers, Celtics, etc change coaches, players, management, etc and here they are once again while so many teams can't come close. Is this so hard to question?

I completely agree with you that Cleveland has made some suspect choices but if they hadn't won the lottery with Lebron, would they even be in any sort of discussion about anything anyway? To sit here and say that if they had done XYZ or signed PDQ and that would've put them over the top when so much data suggests the contrary is just willful ignorance of history. I'll acknowledge that you could be right but I don't know. If Jerry Buss bought the Raptors tomorrow, would they be a contender the next 30 years? I don't know, it hasn't ever happened.

I mean, how is 8 teams winning the Championship in 30 years and the Lakers playing in it HALF the 30 years even remotely interesting to anyone outside of California?? I'm sure I'll watch the Finals and it'll be entertaining but the only real interesting story at this point would be if the Magic or Suns somehow came back and won it all. The rest is just status quo and business as usual.

It's been a crappy playoff year, for sure. But it's a year-to-year thing. Last year in the first round you had two 7-game series (including the Bulls/Celts that included 5 or 6 OT games), two 6-game series and one sweep. Second round, two 7-game series and one sweep and two 6-gamers in the conf. finals.

Seriously Derris, you're sounding like a fucking sports radio host. Just go ahead and grow the goatee already.

What are you suggesting ere exactly?

In practically HALF of those thirty years, the Lakers have had Magic, Kareem, Shaq in his prime, Kobe, and Gasol, and that's just getting started.

Are you suggesting that the NBA should redistribute it's talent among the league, or tighten it's salary cap? Because that doesn't work, either.

The fact remains that the Magic somewhat and the Suns especially, aren't on the same level as Boston or Los Angeles, and this doesn't have to do with overall spending. It has to do with allocation of funds.

The Bulls pretty much DRAFTED their championship team:
Jordan, Pippen, Grant, etc...

Just great scouting. And then, when they realized what they had, they surrounded them with veteran role players, and then made a great move in promoting Jackson from assistant to head coach. In the case of that major market team, they made a LOT of very smart moves. The organization DID get them their championships, in many ways. But their egos got too big, and they completely fucked themselves by alienating Jordan when he retired.

Friend sent this to me...

I have this on VHS.

One of my older brother's friends left it at our house some time in the late nineties when he graduated high school and had to go back to Papua New Guinea. In a country where -- at the time -- finding NBA footage was like sifting gold out of river sand, me and my younger brother thought he must've been insane.

Clearly, he wasn't...

who sounds more ridiculous, doc rivers or stan van gundy?

I'll vote Stan because he actually looks like a clown.

i know gar and yail will enjoy this - the continuing saga of zach "z-bo" randolph

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/23686810/detail.html