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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:55 pm 
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two guns holla Wrote:
Did Rads write this for Defamer?
http://gawker.com/5545877/

Quote:
For years, the show's creators and actors have been running the same bullshit line about how Lost is a character-driven show. Here is the thing, though: It is not a character-driven show. It is a show, that has characters! But the characters do not "drive" the show, except in the sense that they do things that help advance the plot. Because it is a "plot-driven" show! Lost is a show that is interesting because it has an interesting plot. Frankly, most of the characters suck! Especially Kate. And Jack. And Sawyer. And, really, all of them, except for Ben.


It even mentioned creative writing class.

I totally agree with pretty much that entire article, except the part about the characters sucking. I thought the characters were mostly interesting and believable. Mostly. And I've always really liked Jack as the protagonist (although never liked the fake beard).


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Somewhat related note - I never really understood why so many people hated Kate. She was never my favorite character (...except maybe in the first season), but there have always been worse and less sympathetic ones. Kate episodes did tend to be on the weaker side, though, especially the one near the beginning of this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:36 pm 
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agreed that the first season of Lost was the best tv ever. i remember being utterly consumed with it. it's a shame that they couldn't keep that going at the conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:37 pm 
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Saint Wrote:
someone at work said she thought they all died in the original planecrash and the whole gd show was some time of purgatory.

did anyone get that from the ending?


Yes, as it was alluded to in the final scene with the plane wreckage, but I was then confused when Matthew Fox (Jack Shephard) agreed with Jimmy Kimmel who posited that the Island was really happening in Jack's life, i.e. it wasn't a supernatural purgatory (or maybe I misheard the conversation last night?)

I'm sure Rads is pissed that the entire show basically took elements from the world's major religions and created a show about the uncertainty of life and after-life.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:43 pm 
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Everything that happened on the island "really happened" - all of the time travel and everything else - as did everything from flash-backs and flash-forwards from all previous seasons. The survivors of the plane crash(es) were survivors, not spirits in purgatory, or whatever. The only part that was any kind of purgatory/afterlife was the "flash sideways" from this season.

I was pretty annoyed myself with that fucking pan-religious stain glass window in the "church".


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:01 pm 
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So none of them knew they were dead in that sideways world until desmond started putting it all together?


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:01 pm 
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Drinky Wrote:
Everything that happened on the island "really happened" - all of the time travel and everything else - as did everything from flash-backs and flash-forwards from all previous seasons. The survivors of the plane crash(es) were survivors, not spirits in purgatory, or whatever. The only part that was any kind of purgatory/afterlife was the "flash sideways" from this season.

I was pretty annoyed myself with that fucking pan-religious stain glass window in the "church".


Like I said, I could've misremembered the Kimmel/Fox chat. Will have to re-watch tonight. But I do remember correctly that Matthew Fox agreed with Kimmel when Jimmy said the Island was actually happening to Jack. I'm trying to remember when all of the "when are we" time-travel was going on because that's when the linear chronology came in question.

Saint Wrote:
So none of them knew they were dead in that sideways world until desmond started putting it all together?


That's what I inferred. That would mean that they "died" when Juliet set off the H-Bomb, but were they already dead after the Ajira flight? I simply can't remember.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:08 pm 
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what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?


That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:27 pm 
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discostu Wrote:
I'm sure Rads is pissed that the entire show basically took elements from the world's major religions and created a show about the uncertainty of life and after-life.

I'm pissed that the show was retarded. To wit:
discostu Wrote:
Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?

That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?

That the electromagnetic properties that prevented them from escaping the island for SIX YEARS suddenly no longer mattered.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:43 pm 
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Radcliffe Wrote:
discostu Wrote:
I'm sure Rads is pissed that the entire show basically took elements from the world's major religions and created a show about the uncertainty of life and after-life.

I'm pissed that the show was retarded. To wit:
discostu Wrote:
Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?

That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?

That the electromagnetic properties that prevented them from escaping the island for SIX YEARS suddenly no longer mattered.


Well shit Rads, they must've flown away before Jack put the tampon back into the lava vag.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Radcliffe Wrote:
discostu Wrote:
I'm sure Rads is pissed that the entire show basically took elements from the world's major religions and created a show about the uncertainty of life and after-life.

I'm pissed that the show was retarded. To wit:
discostu Wrote:
Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?

That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?

That the electromagnetic properties that prevented them from escaping the island for SIX YEARS suddenly no longer mattered.


i thought they could've escaped but just had to get the coordinates right? they were all set to take the sub before it got blown up.

why would you bother to continue watching it if it's so retarded? i mean, you might as well just watch jersey shore.

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:40 pm 
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shiv Wrote:
i thought they could've escaped but just had to get the coordinates right? they were all set to take the sub before it got blown up.

Ah, yes. The coordinates. Remember when those mattered?

shiv Wrote:
why would you bother to continue watching it if it's so retarded? i mean, you might as well just watch jersey shore.

Why do so many people here so loathe the idea of practical criticism? I enjoyed the show. I watched it every week. Why the fuck would that mean I can't also see what's wrong with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:54 pm 
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Radcliffe Wrote:
shiv Wrote:
i thought they could've escaped but just had to get the coordinates right? they were all set to take the sub before it got blown up.

Ah, yes. The coordinates. Remember when those mattered?


2 weeks ago?

Radcliffe Wrote:
shiv Wrote:
why would you bother to continue watching it if it's so retarded? i mean, you might as well just watch jersey shore.

Why do so many people here so loathe the idea of practical criticism? I enjoyed the show. I watched it every week. Why the fuck would that mean I can't also see what's wrong with it?


so, what did you like about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:14 pm 
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two guns holla Wrote:


This cracked me up...

Quote:
Oh hold on a second. I know that this is the season finale of Lost, an incredibly complicated show filled with loose ends and we only have a few minutes left to explain things and wrap up the saga, but Sawyer just really needs to straighten out his dollar bill before putting it into the vending machine.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:36 am 
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discostu Wrote:
Radcliffe Wrote:
discostu Wrote:
I'm sure Rads is pissed that the entire show basically took elements from the world's major religions and created a show about the uncertainty of life and after-life.

I'm pissed that the show was retarded. To wit:
discostu Wrote:
Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?

That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?

That the electromagnetic properties that prevented them from escaping the island for SIX YEARS suddenly no longer mattered.


Well shit Rads, they must've flown away before Jack put the tampon back into the lava vag.


My guess at the answer that the writers would give is that Jacob was the one keeping anyone from leaving (like Ben said after Hurley was anointed). Once he died and Hurley was the new leader, he would probably let people leave the island. Especially his friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:31 pm 
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two guns holla Wrote:
Did Rads write this for Defamer?
http://gawker.com/5545877/

Quote:
For years, the show's creators and actors have been running the same bullshit line about how Lost is a character-driven show. Here is the thing, though: It is not a character-driven show. It is a show, that has characters! But the characters do not "drive" the show, except in the sense that they do things that help advance the plot. Because it is a "plot-driven" show! Lost is a show that is interesting because it has an interesting plot. Frankly, most of the characters suck! Especially Kate. And Jack. And Sawyer. And, really, all of them, except for Ben.


It even mentioned creative writing class.


This is bullshit. Yes the plot is obviously a huge part of the show but if the characters weren't interesting and you didn't care about them it would never have been as successful as it was. The first two seasons were all about the characters backstories which is what hooked me into the show. This guy must be such a fucking loser with nothing better to do if he continues to watch (and bitch about) a show in which he doesn't give a shit about the characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:47 pm 
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This is supposedly from someone that works at the LOST production company Bad Robot:

Quote:
I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long.

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interfered by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Candidates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Candidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposely not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blatant.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs. Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soul-mates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us doing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduism with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soul-mates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spiritual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spiritual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs. faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character back-story, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosaic.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to atone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spiritual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 6:04 pm 
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His explanation for why Ben isn't in the church doesn't really work, since Bernard and Libby were in there, but in general that's interesting. I still think the last season would've been better off without the alternate world though.

Where's that from, FT? I may want to send it on.

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:11 pm 
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http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:16 pm 
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discostu Wrote:
Saint Wrote:
what did it mean when jack saw that jet at the end while looking into the sky?


That Lapidus, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Claire and Kate all flew away to a happy ending?


Oh i didn't know if it was the same plane. I guess that is it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 7:57 pm 
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So if Ben was corrupted by the MiB, why didn't Richard, who was with him all the time, set him straight?

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Bill Simmons' BS Report podcast from yesterday was all Lost. He had Chuck Klosterman on, and Klosterman had an interesting observation.

Paraphrasing, but Klosterman talked about how now with the internet echo chamber there's this sense of entitlement and ownership that has popped up amongst viewerships of different shows. He had a lot more to say and was much more thoughtful about it than I am able to capture here, but he really pointed out how bizarre and silly the rage/"they blew it" thing is with respect to how people evaluate TV shows.

Of course, the Simpsons writers nailed this same sort of thing years ago with Comic Book Guy.

This is always a weird thing - people becoming invested in tearing down a movie/show/record/whatever. It happens on this very forum whenever a new album drops. Sure as the sun rises, peeps will crawl out of the woodwork to bitch.

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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 10:23 pm 
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I don't know Klosterman, but he sounds like an ass.

Yeah, let's not criticize art. It's all great. Enjoy that next Paulie Shore flick while you're at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Lost: The Final Season
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:14 pm 
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I get that he's proud to have been involved with was usually an awesome show, but that ending was not the amazing accomplishment he's making it out to be.


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