have you read about these fuckers? it's brilliant.

http://www.betterplace.com/

I dare you to get one of these Nissan Cube's:

Had one of those as a rental in Phoenix last month. Other than cheesy interior materials, it wasn't too awful. And speaking of cheesy interior materials, I was, and still am, puzzled about the round hunk of black and grey shag carpet velcroed to the middle of the dash.

This is why I'd rather convert to Natural Gas.

the key, if you have kids, is to get a car that is too small to really fit car seats in, so you never have to drive them anywhere. and make sure your wife has a big car.

That documentary on fracking has me thinking otherwise. Some naaaaasty shit they do to the water table.

Counterpoint: 49% of our electricity comes from coal which, let's face it, is no picnic.

Yeah coal's got problems too, but the pr isn't "Natural Gas: Just as bad but different," it's "Natural Gas: It's the tits!" And it isn't. It's not regulated (the extraction process) by the EPA, because ol' Cheney got it exempted. So they can and do wreak allll sorts of havoc when they go in to get it. If you're downstream, there *will* be some amazingly toxic shit in your water. And they're not liable, right now. Anywho.

Streams bubbling up gas, that you can just walk up and light. Fish kills, ruined wells, bad shit. And they do not admit fault, they just put in cisterns for fresh water. -shrug- My concern is that the discussion is balanced, that people know that shit. If we're all willing to trade upstate NY / PA for some gas, then cool, but we shouldn't be kidding ourselves about the fact that that's what it is.

This had me starting to rethink the Explorer but I think you were mistaken Gar. I did some checking (because I wanted to believe it to be true) and the Explorer isn't a hybrid, just uses some hybrid tricks. It's still around 17/25 with gas mileage.

The only Ford that can get the kind of gas mileage you were talking is the Fusion Hybrid. Even the Escape Hybrid is only around 31/34. Or something close to that.

I don't know how big you are, but the Element is the worst designed vehicle ever for drivers over 6'3" or so. All that damn room in the back and they couldn't make a drivers seat that goes back more than two damn inches? I went to test drive one last month when I got my new car and couldn't even get in the damn thing.

The five door Malibu has a ton or room and fully flat seats, should accomodate your bass, and you can get one a few years old for pretty cheap. The 2011 Caliber has a couple of extra inches, seats lay a little closer to flat, and wider back end, than the older ones, may be able to accomodate your bass a little better than previous Calibers. Though they are crazy expensive right now, the Accord Crosstour is pretty fantastic--fully flat seats, as much room as the CRV, AWD, and ridiculous gas mileage. Running about 30k right now, but if you aren't opposed to leasing option Honda has a couple of great lease deals on them.

I wish we could have afforded a Crosstour. Those are sweet.

Admittedly, I was drunk when I was looking at them last night, but I swear I saw that. Must have assumed the Fusion numbers were the Exploder numbers in MPH or something.

It kind of sucks, but it's kind of good, because I was considering trading my humongo mobile for one if it got that kind of mileage.

Same here. I think we made five or six trips to the Honda dealership looking at them in a two week span. Ultimately, just couldn't justify that price though. We ended up deciding between the Elantra Touring, Rondo, and the Caliber and wound up with a new Caliber Mainstreet. Figured at 16k sticker, got 8k for my truck, 1k cash back, and 0.9% financing, we should have this paid off in three years--by that time those Crosstours should be popping up used or at least have come down a little bit. At least that's what I am hoping for.

Also, when did Subaru get so damn expensive? Did I miss something the past few years?

does vee-dubya still make them there toe rags?

i'm trying to decide between a nissan juke, altima or a mazda 3. still haven't test drove any of them but those are the 3 i like the most.

and yeah, the crosstour looks sweet.

if money was no object, i'd get this. it looks badass.

Owned a CRV and it was roomy enough to fit 3 car seats in, which is an accomplishment. Good car. Had to upgrade to the expedition to haul all the trips' shit around.

Owned a CRV and it was roomy enough to fit 3 car seats in, which is an accomplishment. Good car. Had to upgrade to the expedition to haul all the trips' shit around.

Where are those AMC cross wagons I remember as a kid. Oh yeah, I knew they'd be a hit way back then.
No one believed me when I told my friend's mom it was a cool car.

My dad had an AMC Hornet.

I drove an Element from 2003 until I traded it in for an Odyssey last year. Alas, I had a couple kids and needed more passenger space. I was, and still am, sad to see it go. That was my favorite car to date. I had the 5-speed EX and it was fun to drive. My wife and I would regularly go camping with two bikes inside with our camping gear plus two kayaks on the top. I'd definitely buy one again. The only bad thing was the gas mileage. It was in the low 20s but I guess that's the price you pay for driving a box. It was sweet on road trips though. Lots of torque to get through the mountains and plenty of power otherwise. I'm 6'0" and 220 and had plenty of room in there. Actually I thought it was really spacious for all four passengers.

If money was no object, I'd go with one of these (Audi Q5)



or these (Audi Q7 V12 TDI)

The cynic in me says you've been at least semi-conned by another documentary taking an extra-extreme viewpoint to make a point. But that's your business, not mine.

I'm sure you'll agree though that all sources of energy (even the so called green ones) have potentially negative consequences and the best we can do is try and make the best of it, right? Right?

Absolutely, but it's not a monotone brush you can paint everything with - not with a clean conscience, anyway. "All politicians are bad" doesn't make Donald Trump a reasonable presidential candidate, and "wind farms are kinda ugly to look at" doesn't make you or I want to have radioactive material start showing up in our drinking water so we can have more natural gas. Shades of grey are no fun (BELIEVE me, I've pissed off people I love by admitting that I care about anything deeper than guitar strings), but they're where the actual honest answers are. And in this case (to bring things back to the specific), there are BIG problems with the way gas is being extracted. If it were regulated, as common sense would seem to dictate, it would NEVER pass. No way in hell. That should trouble anyone with a brain and a conscience. They've been allowed to cut the responsibility cord between their profit and your faucet. There is no accountability. That's what I want.