Haq is totally right. I still maintain that we are quick to judge. And that's it's unfair to label Noah. But I know the board moralists would never lose their judgment in the heat of a moment.

And from the beginning I've also said the NBA has to fine him.

In my opinion cunt is the most offensive word in the English language.

'Moist'. It's not even a contest which descends the furthest.

Moist: by far, the most disgusting term in English.

To me, the Noah issue is more about an NBA player insulting a fan, not about the specific word used. In the ideal word fans would be happy all the time and players would be happy all the time and no one would exchange a single heated word. But it is not an ideal world and fans are going to talk smack--after all, it is their money they're spending on tickets and their passion that keeps the players on the court. These badass NBA players should be man enough to not pay attention to the negative shit to that is flying about.

And since it is in the NBA's interest to keep fans happy, they are entirely within their right to slap fines on players who endanger that.

Plus, after the Pacers/Pistons brawl a few years back where Ron Artest went into the stands to attack a fan, I think the NBA has been pretty leery about a repeat of that.

Dear Jimmy Fallon,

Thank yo for appearing on every media outlet this week promoting your book. Also, I stole your bit.

Love,

Tee/Monty

This is an attempt at a personal Gotcha moment and not a real answer. None of those ”groups” get used as a slur by pissed off people reaching for a good insult.

This is where rational, reasonable people either quietly bow out or apologize.

If the question is...



I can only decide what offends me, not what offends others and would never be so presumptuous as to speak to another person or groups' level of offendedness.[sic]

If only it was that simple but then you created the strawman argument of



And I stopped taking you seriously. Because, I wouldn't do that either, and you know I wouldn't. In fact, there's a 100% that you would do that before I would.

And it has nothing to do with the question at hand, you've just moved the argument further and further away from its original place.

So if I am to apologize to my friend that he is a fool who can't see the forest for the trees then so be it. Sorry Kyle, you're a damn fool.

No reason to lash out. It's not my fault you're holding an untenable position and got schooled in public.

You should be used to it by now anyway.

yep, Cap'n is pretty good at that.

Cap'n - game, set, and match.

Oh and a special get-the-fuck-out-of-here to those who diminish the offensiveness of "faggot." If you'd an open mind and a bottle of Patron I'd take a couple hours and 'splain to you why some kids kill themselves.

yeah, those poor gay kids. they're so much different than the 'straight' kids that kill themselves because of abuse, depression, real world problems, bullying, etc..

just shut the fuck up. you are so stupid in this thread dalen. along with everyone else taking the jock side of this argument. just shut the fuck up.

Stop being such a cunt, Cats.

Hey-oh!

okay

it's not up to the speaker to determine/judge offensiveness, that's totally up to the listener

And bullying builds character. Most definitive study (Children's Hospital, Harvard, 2001 I think) cites over three times more likely.

Ah never mind. I knew I should haven't read this thread...

there's no argument here, its indefensible, it's just people making excuses allowing for bad behavior

You want me on this wall, harry. You need me on this wall.

I thought about something else to help me illustrate my position on this since I think I've done a poor job doing so and what came to mind is the recent Supreme Court case involving the Westboro Baptist Church protesting at military funerals.

I fucking hate the Phelps' and their minions and if it was my son's funeral they were protesting, I'd have a hard time not unloading clip after clip on their sorry asses, but in the end I agree with the SCOTUS that it's their right to protest.

And so it is with this...

I'll ignore the jabs and stay in this as long as I can, not playing victim here by any means, just saying there's a limit to how much I'm willing to try to make water flow uphill.



That is not, and never has been, what's called into question by a guy in the NBA yelling Faggot at a fan. You know that. Duck and weave. What does or doesn't offend you about the word "faggot" is irrelevant, as a straight man. What matters is whether or not that word used that way offends gay people, and it does. It realy, really is that easy.



It would be more honest to say you never started.



I am 100% sure you wouldn't either. But it begs the question as to why you think it's ok for someone else to do it, if you wouldn't. I thought that was pretty easy to follow, and either I was wrong (it was hard to follow, for which I apologize) or you did follow it, and are again ducking/weaving by trying to disqualify the person making the point instead of addressing it directly. It's hard for anyone to reverse course in any way, so again this is probably pointless, but fuckitall I'm actually right this time, and that never, ever happens. It doesn't feel as good as I thought it would.



This was overly dramatic and a little hurtful. I think I've been pretty fair and respectful. If I'm wrong about that please correct me - I'm trying very hard to explain something carefully, and I am 100% ready for the usual outcome - where you point out something I didn't think of and I smack my forehead and LEARN. So far, that hasn't happened, or anything close to it. I'm not accusing you of anything, or of being anything. I just don't get why you would defend this, other than (at this point) maybe stubbornness, to which I am no stranger myself.

It's not ok to yell faggot at people. Is that really this complicated? And the result of an NBA player doing is what actually happened... a fine and an apology. System in balance.

As to this, one response that pops to mind immediately is that an NBA fine is not a governmental regulation or control of free speech. You (and every other sane person on the planet) abhor what that "church" does, but they're allowed to do it. In turn, most sane people abhor somebody yelling Faggot at someone else, but they're allowed to do it, legally. The question is, should the NBA have fined him. Dalen says no, the NBA and I say yes.

Hey just for shits, lemme switch hats here for a second. Could the original argument (from Dale) have put differently? Ie...

"I don't think the NBA deciding to NOT fine Noah for that incident should be construed as an endorsement of gay bashing, thus forcing them to fine him or be deemed anti-gay."

That would be a slightly different discussion, in some ways, and may have been what some folks here are actually getting at.

Argument? There's been no argument here. There's been a couple of louts trying to justify their vocabulary.

Also, take a breather, Cap'n. That last post reads like you've got the same command of syntax as Jared Loughner.

I'm good.

1. You're totally right that an NBA fine and governmental regulation are two totally different things. I knew this would be the response so I should have been more clear: I was just trying to illustrate that there is occasionally a certain moral ambiguity in supporting things like people's right to say certain things.

2. I don't think I ever argued that the NBA, as a private entity, shouldn't have fined Noah for his use of the word. My argument was totally based on the use of the word in general which I think you guys (especially you and Haq) did a fine job of showing to be offensive. So pat yourselves on the back for a job well done.

I think there was a nuance to the argument that was lost somewhere, you began laying out a series of choices that I didn't really think had anything to do with what was at issue and things took an unfortunate turn to the personal. Sorry for that.