I think any argument against a guy like Puckett/longevity argument is defensed by Koufax. He had 6 AMAZING seasons. And, for those 6 seasons, may be the best pitcher to ever lace up a pair of spikes. But it's not as if he amassed a Nolan Ryan style career statistic count.

Their calling card was their defensive skills but they weren't one dimensional players. Robinson was a middle order of the bat guy who won an MVP and finished in the top 3 in MVP voting 4 times. Smith started out as a great field, no hit SS but ended up being one of the better offensive shortstops in the league in his prime. They were pretty well-rounded players. Omar Vizquel won 11 gold gloves at SS but no one in their right mind would argue that he should be a hall of famer.

WAR is intended to measure the combined offensive and defensive contributions of a player and how many wins their performance compared to the average performer at their position. The fact that there aren't many SS with very high WAR before the 80's speaks to how the range of performance was much less at SS than at most positions (thus the interchangeable comment).

I'm familiar with WAR. However, the problems with measuring good defense (zone rating,etc.) is well documented and it's hard to say who is correct. A lot of modern defensive stats contradict each other. I don't believe either Ozzie or Robinson are hall of famers without their defensive prowess.

But I think we're basically on the same point though.

There's only 16 third basemen and 20 second baseman in HOF including Negro players and Paul Molitor if that matters to you. There's only 24 first baseman. So SS is not less valued by HOF voters than the rest of the infield.

which is countered by

[lloydbentsen]I know Sandy Koufax and you Mr. Puckett are no Sandy Koufax[/lloydbentsen]

I find the whole First Ballot vs. Subsequent Ballot stuff to be godawful, misty-eyed dog shit.

You're in or you ain't. You have to draw a line somewhere. The HOF gets most of 'em right—and I value baseball writers somewhere above dudes who jerk it on a bus but below dudes who pay to have fat chicks sit on their heads.

But I do think Marvin Miller should have gotten in.

Why not put on a lab coat and stethoscope and call yourself Teh Sportz Doktor?

I heard yesterday that Bobby Cox will probably try and go into the Hall of Fame in 2014, the same year as Glavine and Maddux's first year of eligibility and presumed enshrinement.

Looking like Clemens, Sosa and Bonds won't be first balloters. No surprises. Ballot voters still have until January to fill them out, but from the writers divulging their ballots, doesn't look like it'll happen.

Bonds and Clemens should be 1st ballot

Bagwell should get in, finally, with Biggio. Fitting... But late (for Jeff).

If Schilling gets in, though, it makes the exclusion of Mickey Lolich & Tommy John (if for nothing else than being the guinea pig for the career-saving ligament replacement surgery that has become routine across sport, not just baseball) that much more ridiculous.

& Coors effect, sure, but Larry Walker should be in.

Agreed.

Schilling has better regular season numbers than I remembered and (obviously) amazing postseason numbers. I'll allege he was a juicer too though.

I've heard compelling arguments both for and against Biggio; I'm on the fence. Numbers, yes, but I'm not sure I ever felt like I was watching a HoF'er (and I saw him a lot)

Also, when can we pick up the Jack Morris debate again?

The case for Biggio, though it relies foremost on his willingness to play at replacement-level for the final two-plus years of his career to get to the magic 3000 hits, has a few other highlights to his resume:

*played three premium positions well (catcher, second, centerfield (the last less so than the preceding, but to the benefit of his team, which had just picked up Jeff Kent))
*414 steals at just under an 80% conversion rate (414 for 538)
*1844 runs scored
*668 doubles
*150 double-plays ground into (for 7 per year on a 20 year career, & never more than 15 in a year (twice))

Sure, he's the original SCRAPPY player, but more Pedroia than Eckstein. Much more Pedroia than Eckstein.

And my mythical Hall of Fame ballot, limiting it to no more than 10, same as the real ballot:

Bonds
Bagwell
Larry Walker
'Rock' Raines
Biggio
Edgar Martinez
Fred Mc Griff

All offense, in an offense-dominated era.

I'd put off letting in Piazza & Clemens for a year, so they get penalized for, a, playing in NY (Clemens more than Piazza), & b, not being considerate enough to know what Accutane is (regardless of why they were pimply, it's just not ok to subject teammates in the locker-room to that shit (say I, as a one-time terminal pizzaface), & so, c, they have the chance to go in as a couple. Plus, throw Schilling in with them, to make it the most loathsome threeway since Julius Caesar, Marc Antony, & Cleopatra.

& two years from now, as a palette cleanser for the Piazza-Clemens-Schilling troika, Dale Murphy. But no Don Mattingly -- too many Yankees as it is -- & fuck no, no Graig Nettles. (Who somehow spells his name even more egregiously than Brookings "scholar" Easterbrook.)

& about Mattingly, & Nettles -- if even one voter puts down Mike Stanton, that idiot needs his Hall of Fame selection privileges revoked.

I remember how good Schillings regular season numbers were : (

I was a big fan of the Crime Dog even before he came to the Braves and loved him when he was here. But he isn't a Hall of Famer in my estimation.

And what am I missing about Edgar Martinez? He's not even borderline. Just a good player who played a long time for one team.

18 years with a batting average well over .300 and over 300 HRs is nothing to sneeze at. The voters like longevity and old school numbers like .300

Except that he hasn't gotten even 40% of the vote in any year.

I guess the voters like people who play in bigger market cities, preferably if they can watch the game before they go to bed.

my "big picture" baseball knowledge is sort of limited to 1987-89 when I studied every baseball card I owned. Now I pretend to know what's up because RA Dickey owned the Phillies before the rest of the leauge figured out that they can't hit him.

i think part of the argument with him is that he is in the conversation for greatest at his primary position and anyone who's the greatest at their position should be in. of course, he's not in because voters think of DHs like canton voters think of kickers and punters.

OH RLY?

Outside of Bonds he might have been the best hitter in baseball during his peak (95-2001).....plus outside of his peak he was still very good to great. I don't think people realize how good of a hitter he actually was.


http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... inezs-bat/
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/1 ... f-the-hall
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/12/28/2664 ... -hitter-dh

I think Tony Gwynn and Larry Walker might have some dispute with you over that.

larry walker, crime dog, biggio, and edgar for me....OUT....for various reasons. pretty close though and i could be persuaded. i have a fairly high bar on HOF's. but really, who gives a fuck about HOF's?

We'll they'd be wrong. Edgar was a better hitter during those years....not to mention over his career. (edit .....and there's no denying what great hitters Walker and Gywnn were).

Over Tony's career he had a wRC+ 155 or better just once. Edgar averaged wRC+ of 164 from 95-01. He had a wRC+ of 155 or greater 8 times (and once it was 154). Meanwhile Larry Walker did that 5 times.

Career wRC+ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/)

Edgar - 148
Larry Walker 142
Tony Gywnn 132.

That shows you how truly underrated of a hitter Edgar was.