Baseball Hall of Fame

Flying Rabbit · **Posted:** Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:17 pm

If McGriff gets in, there better be a place on the plaque for Tom Emanski.

Bagwell, Trammell, Raines, and Martinez for me.

Sketch · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:15 pm

Based on who's already in the Hall...

Bonds
Clemens
Bagwell
Schillling
Walker, L
Trammell
Raines
Martinez, E

Yail Bloor · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:53 pm

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

And what am I missing about Edgar Martinez? He's not even borderline. Just a good player who played a long time for one team.

Outside of Bonds he might have been the best hitter in baseball during his peak (95-2001)...

I think Tony Gwynn and Larry Walker might have some dispute with you over that.

We'll they'd be wrong. Edgar was a better hitter during those years....not to mention over his career. (edit .....and there's no denying what great hitters Walker and Gywnn were).

Over Tony's career he had a wRC+ 155 or better just once. Edgar averaged wRC+ of 164 from 95-01. He had a wRC+ of 155 or greater 8 times (and once it was 154). Meanwhile Larry Walker did that 5 times.

Career wRC+ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/)

Edgar - 148
Larry Walker 142
Tony Gywnn 132.

That shows you how truly underrated of a hitter Edgar was.

I know he looks good using some of the James-ian metrics as well, but fuck man, how do you call yourself a great hitter, play for 18 years and only compile 2247 hits? Also, only six All Star appearances, never finished higher than 3rd on an MVP ballot, only fielded in roughly 20% of his innings played...These are not HOF stats IMHO.

You can use some advanced metrics horseshit to come to a different conclusion and that's fine, we agree to disagree.

billy g · **Joined:** Mon Oct 25, 2004 1:41 pm **Posts:** 9020

Yail Bloor Wrote:

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

And what am I missing about Edgar Martinez? He's not even borderline. Just a good player who played a long time for one team.

Outside of Bonds he might have been the best hitter in baseball during his peak (95-2001)...

I think Tony Gwynn and Larry Walker might have some dispute with you over that.

We'll they'd be wrong. Edgar was a better hitter during those years....not to mention over his career. (edit .....and there's no denying what great hitters Walker and Gywnn were).

Over Tony's career he had a wRC+ 155 or better just once. Edgar averaged wRC+ of 164 from 95-01. He had a wRC+ of 155 or greater 8 times (and once it was 154). Meanwhile Larry Walker did that 5 times.

Career wRC+ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/)

Edgar - 148
Larry Walker 142
Tony Gywnn 132.

That shows you how truly underrated of a hitter Edgar was.

I know he looks good using some of the James-ian metrics as well, but fuck man, how do you call yourself a great hitter, play for 18 years and only compile 2247 hits? Also, only six All Star appearances, never finished higher than 3rd on an MVP ballot, only fielded in roughly 20% of his innings played...These are not HOF stats IMHO.

You can use some advanced metrics horseshit to come to a different conclusion and that's fine, we agree to disagree.

I've always thought that to be a Hall of Famer a player needed both a long and productive career (years played, and your typical counting stat milestones) and to be one of the very best players during his peak period. Edgar doesn't really have the counting stats that the old school looks at because he didn't become an MLB regular until his age 27 season and then had a couple of injury plagued seasons in which he missed substantial chunks of the season which is why he was converted from 3B to DH in an effort to keep him healthy and on the field. For perspective, Ichiro came to the US in his 27 season, has been a healthy hit machine for his entire career and has something like 2600 hits at 39. I think the All star game appearances is pretty irrelevant. People get shafted all the time in selections, Edgar was a DH and DH's weren't selected that often (it wasn't a position voted in during his career) and he played for Seattle with his prime greatly overlapping A-Rod and Griffey playing for Seattle. As far as MVP voting goes, he was a DH. Has a DH ever won the MVP? I can't think of one. A third place finish for a DH is pretty damn high.

He's a borderline candidate to me. Being a DH hurts him as it should. A relatively short career hurts him too. DHRjericho is right though. He was an absolute stud hitter in his prime.

Yail Bloor · **Posted:** Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm

I looked up the DH/MVP thing because I was curious...I remember the kerfuffle when Gonzalez won, the other two not so much:

Quote:

Since 1973, which was the first year DHs were used by the American League, three players have won the MVP award in years they played a significant amount of games as a designated hitter.

The first was Boston's Jim Rice who in 1978 played 49 of his 163 games (remember the one-game playoff against New York) as a DH. The next season California Angels league MVP Don Baylor played 65 of 162 games at DH, and finally in 1996 Texas' Juan Gonzalez played 32 of 134 games at DH.

I guess it's a little like a relief pitcher winning the Cy Young.

jewels santana · **Joined:** Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:36 pm **Posts:** 10198

I think this just proves that we have to ban the DH

DHRjericho · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:11 am

Yail Bloor Wrote:

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

DHRjericho Wrote:

Yail Bloor Wrote:

And what am I missing about Edgar Martinez? He's not even borderline. Just a good player who played a long time for one team.

Outside of Bonds he might have been the best hitter in baseball during his peak (95-2001)...

I think Tony Gwynn and Larry Walker might have some dispute with you over that.

We'll they'd be wrong. Edgar was a better hitter during those years....not to mention over his career. (edit .....and there's no denying what great hitters Walker and Gywnn were).

Over Tony's career he had a wRC+ 155 or better just once. Edgar averaged wRC+ of 164 from 95-01. He had a wRC+ of 155 or greater 8 times (and once it was 154). Meanwhile Larry Walker did that 5 times.

Career wRC+ (http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/)

Edgar - 148
Larry Walker 142
Tony Gywnn 132.

That shows you how truly underrated of a hitter Edgar was.

I know he looks good using some of the James-ian metrics as well, but fuck man, how do you call yourself a great hitter, play for 18 years and only compile 2247 hits? Also, only six All Star appearances, never finished higher than 3rd on an MVP ballot, only fielded in roughly 20% of his innings played...These are not HOF stats IMHO.

You can use some advanced metrics horseshit to come to a different conclusion and that's fine, we agree to disagree.

I was arguing about how good of a hitter he was. I think he's borderline but feel that he was such a great hitter that I would be fine if he was elected. I don't really care that much about hits (he did have almost 1,300 BB's), All-Star voting is joke most years (and billy's comments above), MVP - (see billy's comments), and he only in 20% of his innings because he was almost exclusively a DH for most of his career (a position that actually exists in the MLB unlike a relief pitcher).

If you think that Edgar isn't even borderline then i can't imagine a scenario in which you'd ever think anyone how was almost exclusively a DH should be in the hall of fame.

Flying Rabbit · **Posted:** Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:50 am

I know its not HoF related, but...best baseball headline in awhile:

Dale Sveum shot by Robin Yount

The imagery is fantastical.

Baseball Hall of Fame

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