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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:24 pm 
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Interrupting the yeast before they are truly done is bad.

And...

Leaving all the dormant yeast in the beer for too long is also bad.

...

Knowing exactly when to move the wort off the yeast can only be determined through gravity readings, or through experience of making the same thing many many times. But ten days / two weeks is about the time.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Cap'n Squirrgle Wrote:
Interrupting the yeast before they are truly done is bad.

And...

Leaving all the dormant yeast in the beer for too long is also bad.

...

Knowing exactly when to move the wort off the yeast can only be determined through gravity readings, or through experience of making the same thing many many times. But ten days / two weeks is about the time.


I don't think you should leave a beer on a yeast cake for more than a month, but you really aren't risking much by waiting a full two weeks like most recipe kits advise or even dry hopping a beer for a week in the primary fermenter once primary fermentation is done. I would have attempted to hurry things along the first time I made beer, had I not been advised by both professional brewers and home brewers to simply let the yeast do its magic, and I dry hopped that batch in the primary due to having minimal equipment at that point in time.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Agree. But the magic can be measured, and isn't merely a function of time. Also yeast eventually begin to autolyse, so there is a sweet spot around 2 weeks in which to minimize their presence in the wort... Hence conical fermentors. Again for her sake "wait 2 weeks" is the right advice, but behind the scenes it isn't mystery, it's microbiology, and it can be monitored.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:54 pm 
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Yeah, I'd simply argue that the microbiological aspect of it could overcomplicate the brewing process for a beginner brewer, and that the learning process doesn't really needed to be hurried along. I personally advocate a trial and error process that involves little tinkering with a beer, but there are some people who enjoy sanitizing a beer thief multiple times to better understand there yeast and/or take numerous readings with their Brix refractometer.

My line of thinking was more eloquently discussed by John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff on an episode of Brew Strong. They were also discussing why it isn't really necessary for homebrewers to use a secondary fermentation.

Quote:
John: And unfortunately I'm an perpetuator of the myth at HowtoBrew.com. The 1st edition talks about the benefits of transferring the beer off the yeast.

Jamil: Well that was the popular way of doing things. But that was what, the 1st edition? Stop getting the thing off the internet. Buy yourself the 3rd addition copy and get the updated information.

John: As we've gotten more educated on how much good healthy yeast you need for optimum fermentation the advice that we used to give 20 years ago has changed. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, homebrewers were using with a single packet of dry yeast that was taped to the top of the can. There weren't as many liquid yeast cultures available.

Jamil: People didn't make starters either.

John: Right. So the whole health and vitality of yeast was different back then compared to know. Back then it made sense. You had weaker yeast that had finished fermentation that were more susceptible to autolysis and breaking down. Now that is not the case. The bar of homebrewing has risen to where we are able to make beer that has the same robustness as professional beer. We've gotten our techniques and understanding of what makes a good fermentation up to that level, so you don't need to transfer the beer off the yeast to avoid autolysis like we used to recommend.

Jamil: Unless you are going to do long term at warm temperatures, but even then we are talking over a month. I thought about this as well and I think one of the reasons autolysis....and the fact that people were using weak yeast in inappropriate amounts and the transfer would add some oxygen to it which would help attenuate a few more points. I think that was part of the deal why transferring was considered appropriate years ago.

John: But these days we don't recommend secondary transfer. Leave it in the primary, you know, a month. Today's fermentations are typically healthy enough that you are not going to get autolysis flavors or off-flavors from leaving the beer on the yeast for an extended period of time.

Jamil: And if you are using healthy yeast and the appropriate amount and the thing is... homebrew style fermentors..if you are using a carboy or plastic bucket which have that broad base when the yeast flocculate out they lay in a nice thin layer. When you're dealing with large, tall...one of the things you know people go "Well the commercial brewers they remove the yeast because it is gonna break down, die, and make the beer bad. We should be doing the same thing." That's where alot of this comes from. But the commerical brewers are working with 100 bbl fermenters that are very tall and put a lot of pressure on the yeast. The yeast are jammed into this little cone in the bottom and they are stacked very deep and there is a lot of heat buildup. The core of that yeast mass can be several degrees C higher than the rest of that yeast mass and it can actually cook the yeast and cause them to die faster and cause those problems with flavor and within a couple of days the viability of that yeast which the commercial brewers are going to reuse is going to drop 25%, 50% over a couple of days so they need to get that yeast out of there. You don't have that restriction as a homebrewer. You've got these broad fermenter bases that allow the yeast to be distributed evently. It's an advantage for cleaning up the beer. You have the advantage that the yeast don't break down as fast. You don't have as high a head pressure. There are a lot of advantages

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:47 am 
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so can i dry hop in the primary?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:42 pm 
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Hmmm. It is clear I know nothing of the deets of all this. Drinkable will be a victory for me.

Two weeks is easy enough bit will try harder next time.

Am also attempting mead. My basement is full of home production small scale activities. Semi unemployment madness.


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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:36 pm 
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catswilleatyou Wrote:
so can i dry hop in the primary?


If you are using liquid yeast or using a yeast starter, you should be able to dry hop in a primary fermenter without any legitimate fear of off flavors caused by autolysis.
If you just dump a package of dry yeast into the wort, than you should probably transfer it to the secondary.
Under attenuation is a much bigger problem in home brewing, and home brewers are more apt to have issues arise due to under pitching yeast than they are from having beer sit on the trub or lees for too long.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:01 am 
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And then once it's in the bottles (not yet, as per discussion), is there an ideal waiting time? Still basement storage preferred?

Also, if I understand correctly, there is lots of stirring recommended while it simmers, vigorous pouring when you put it in the fermenter, then very quiet transfers to secondary fermentors and/or bottling containers, with some folks recommending gentle stirrig for the latter to get the sugar well mixed (but others opposed), and very quiet transfer to bottles. Is that right?


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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:42 pm 
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bluejayway Wrote:
And then once it's in the bottles (not yet, as per discussion), is there an ideal waiting time? Still basement storage preferred?

Also, if I understand correctly, there is lots of stirring recommended while it simmers, vigorous pouring when you put it in the fermenter, then very quiet transfers to secondary fermentors and/or bottling containers, with some folks recommending gentle stirrig for the latter to get the sugar well mixed (but others opposed), and very quiet transfer to bottles. Is that right?


It really depends on what type of beer you made, but two weeks of bottle conditioning should be the minimum. You can continue to keep it in the basement like you would if you were cellaring beers or you can stick them in a dark closet at room temperature. It's just going to take a little longer for them to fully carbonate in your basement at a lower temperature.
You don't want a lot of sloshing and definitely want to do your best to keep the top of the fermenter and the bottling bucket covered as much as humanly possible when you are transferring the beer to the bottling bucket, and you should probably stir/mix the beer with the priming solution mix before you bottle in order to insure a fully carbonated beer. I've never had any issues with under carbonated beers when I take the time to stir it all together after racking the beer on top of the priming sugar solution, but have had a batch that didn't fully carbonate when I failed to do it.
Other than that, just make sure you don't use too much priming sugar.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:40 am 
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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:38 am 
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Promethium Wrote:
catswilleatyou Wrote:
so can i dry hop in the primary?


If you are using liquid yeast or using a yeast starter, you should be able to dry hop in a primary fermenter without any legitimate fear of off flavors caused by autolysis.
If you just dump a package of dry yeast into the wort, than you should probably transfer it to the secondary.
Under attenuation is a much bigger problem in home brewing, and home brewers are more apt to have issues arise due to under pitching yeast than they are from having beer sit on the trub or lees for too long.


i pretty much always make starters now.
mainly because it's a great way commit to brewing the next day.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:35 am 
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I need to learn more about starters.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:08 pm 
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I bottled my Tangerine White IPA tonight. I ended up with a little over four gallons of beer in the bottling bucket. 3.75 gallons of that went into .750ml bottles for a charitable event, but I kept four 12oz bottles for myself, so I could taste it once it is fully carbonated and bottle conditioned.
I'm also consuming a pint of it in its uncarbonated form right now. I'm a little concerned that the sweet orange peel and tangerine extract will mask the four ounces of hops, but I'm also quite happy with the zesty citrus punch is currently has. I'd take it being a little too fruity over a hop bomb that overpowers the wheat malt.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:38 am 
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Bottled first attempt and started second attempt! Much easier second go-round. I just hope some of it ends up tasting ok...


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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:35 pm 
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It almost always does, in the same way that your kids are always cute.

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[quote="Bloor"]He's either done too much and should stay out of the economy, done too little because unemployment isn't 0%, is a dumb ingrate who wasn't ready for the job or a brilliant mastermind who has taken over all aspects of our lives and is transforming us into a Stalinist style penal economy where Christian Whites are fed into meat grinders. Very confusing[/quote]


Last edited by Cap'n Squirrgle on Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:32 pm 
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I went back and tasted my Red Rye IPA after a few weeks, and there has been a dramatic improvement in both color and overall taste.
It is pretty close to being the same color as a decent Irish Red Ale, and the hop profile is rather exquisite at this point. There is a distinct tropical fruit taste, especially passion fruit, mixing in with the citrus and spice from the Rye.
I think I could have used a bit more rye, but I know a lot of people don't enjoy it as much as I do in beer.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Well, the stuff going in the bottles seemed unglamorous but ok (I feared a scorched taste, since I had burned flakes of malt goo filling up the straining bag when it went in the bucket). Next up dunkelweisen from the morebeer folks.

My kid is not always that cute, though. He's very into making online animated videos of people pooping on each other. May be raising a pervert.


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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:59 pm 
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Ahhh, maybe you need to stir more as you're pouring in the malt extract. Sounds like it was hitting the bottom of the pot and pooling there?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Oh, yes, we turned the heat way down and stirred lots on batch two and it went fine. But at least your initial recipe doesn't seem burnt beyond drinkability on initial taste!


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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 pm 
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I bought most of the ingredients for my next batch of beer today, and they were significantly less than my last batch. I'm going to make a Ginger Pear Belgian Blonde Ale for Great Nebraska Beer Festival. I was hoping to wait until after I went back to my hometown over the July 4th Holiday to brew it, but this one really needs to go into the secondary for a week or two and that would be cutting it far too close on the bottle conditioning. I still need to buy the Pear extract, which will probably set me back another $15, but I won't drop money on that until the beer goes into the secondary fermenter.
I have no idea if I will actually get to serve my beer at the event or if I will watch random people drink it while I observe the event as a representative of Nebraska Beer Blog.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:44 am 
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Ever used real fruit for a beer, instead of extracts? I've done berries of various sorts, an apple cooked down first, and also fresh orange peel zests. Berries always worked out great, apple and orange zests never had enough effect... needed MORE.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:51 pm 
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On Sunday I started my first attempt at a high alcohol IIPA super dry super hop bomb.
16.5 lbs of grain 10 oz of hops and a pound of fuckin corn sugar.
I had to break out the mash tun cooler because I could never fit all that in my brew bag.
Ended up at 1.082
Pitched a 1.4L stir plate starter of Wyeast 1272 that I made the day before.
Four days of brutal fermentation and this beer still has an 8 inch krausen on it, really cool to see that much action.

I also did a 2 gallon second runnings of a really low alcohol beer. Just because everything was going smooth. Unfortunately my options for yeast were slim. I had an unmarked yeast cake I had saved from a previous batch probably 4 months old , "brewers yeast" that you buy in the grocery store (we use it for bread), and some campaign yeast. I couldn't get the cake to take off at all in a bowl so I tossed it out. I went with a tablespoon of the grocery store brewers yeast... after 2 days it hadn't started up at all. I pitched a teaspoon of champaign yeast and now it's going alright. Pretty sure this is going to be shit though.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:11 pm 
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catswilleatyou Wrote:
On Sunday I started my first attempt at a high alcohol IIPA super dry super hop bomb.
16.5 lbs of grain 10 oz of hops and a pound of fuckin corn sugar.
I had to break out the mash tun cooler because I could never fit all that in my brew bag.
Ended up at 1.082
Pitched a 1.4L stir plate starter of Wyeast 1272 that I made the day before.
Four days of brutal fermentation and this beer still has an 8 inch krausen on it, really cool to see that much action.

I also did a 2 gallon second runnings of a really low alcohol beer. Just because everything was going smooth. Unfortunately my options for yeast were slim. I had an unmarked yeast cake I had saved from a previous batch probably 4 months old , "brewers yeast" that you buy in the grocery store (we use it for bread), and some campaign yeast. I couldn't get the cake to take off at all in a bowl so I tossed it out. I went with a tablespoon of the grocery store brewers yeast... after 2 days it hadn't started up at all. I pitched a teaspoon of champaign yeast and now it's going alright. Pretty sure this is going to be shit though.


Interesting. For reference, that 7.1% "IPA" I made was 14# of 2 row, 1# of honey malt, no sugars at all, and 14 oz total of hops. So tell me what your hop schedule was?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:29 pm 
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1 oz of summit FWH
1 oz of summit at 60
1 oz cascade at 20
2 oz of citra and 1 oz of cascade at flame out
2 oz of citra and 2 oz of cascade will be dry hopped...for prob around 10 days.

The sugar went in with 5 minutes left. I typically would never think about that but a few sources told me that would be a good way to get the dryness typical in the west coast IPAs. We will see if worked or not. That's the only part of it I'm nervous about at this point. I have it going off through a blowoff tube and it smells amazing in my basement right now.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Nice Homebrew Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:59 pm 
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So yours will be much more bitter than mine, and with less of a late hop nose to it. Also, much drier. PLEASE do report back, super curious.

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