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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:23 pm 
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billy g Wrote:
Sen. LooGAR (D-Pedantic) Wrote:
Steib, Stewart, Bob Welch, Mike Scott, Brett Saberhagen, Oil Can Boyd, Charlie Hough.....

All y'all 70s nigga think Jim Rice, Blyleven, and the Reds' shortstop should make it, but somehow Morris is borderline, or below board. He pitched 6 years in the 80s and won more than Ryan and Blyleven.

Next, you're gonna tell me Glavine is just "pretty good"


is more than "pretty good" your criteria for HOF. Everyone you mentioned but maybe blyleven and morris isn't deserving.

I don't think Glavine is very close to HOF material. In my opinion, Clemens, RJ, and Madduxx are the only starters nearly retirement that are deserving. What happened to your best of all-time, not best of this generation argument...or do you make an exception for your own generation of players.


No, I was saying how can you think Blyleven and Jim Rice (or whoever) IS HoF material, and not think Morris is?

Glavine has that old intangible: HE's a fucking winner. And he may yet get to 300 wins.

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harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Dale Murphy, Jim Rice and Sabermetrics don't belong in the Hall of Fame either.

And I had at least two Dale Murphy jerseys as a kid. I have no beef with Tim Raines, either, but he's not a Hall of Famer. He had a hell of a career, and he should sleep well at night, but if he wants to get into Cooperstown, he can buy a ticket like the rest of us.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:32 pm 
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DHRjericho Wrote:
He's got some great offensive numbers and was an above average/very god outfielder.

Here's a blurb from Rob Neyer on Raines


I don't think you're going to convince anyone with WARP.

So, if Raines isn't a Hall of Famer, is Lou Brock?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:34 pm 
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Sen. LooGAR (D-Pedantic) Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
Sen. LooGAR (D-Pedantic) Wrote:
Steib, Stewart, Bob Welch, Mike Scott, Brett Saberhagen, Oil Can Boyd, Charlie Hough.....

All y'all 70s nigga think Jim Rice, Blyleven, and the Reds' shortstop should make it, but somehow Morris is borderline, or below board. He pitched 6 years in the 80s and won more than Ryan and Blyleven.

Next, you're gonna tell me Glavine is just "pretty good"


is more than "pretty good" your criteria for HOF. Everyone you mentioned but maybe blyleven and morris isn't deserving.

I don't think Glavine is very close to HOF material. In my opinion, Clemens, RJ, and Madduxx are the only starters nearly retirement that are deserving. What happened to your best of all-time, not best of this generation argument...or do you make an exception for your own generation of players.


No, I was saying how can you think Blyleven and Jim Rice (or whoever) IS HoF material, and not think Morris is?

Glavine has that old intangible: HE's a fucking winner. And he may yet get to 300 wins.


Blyleven had more wins, complete games, shut outs, K's, WHIP and a much better ERA.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:34 pm 
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shmoo Wrote:
DHRjericho Wrote:
He's got some great offensive numbers and was an above average/very god outfielder.

Here's a blurb from Rob Neyer on Raines


I don't think you're going to convince anyone with WARP.

So, if Raines isn't a Hall of Famer, is Lou Brock?


IIRC, The argument for Brock is the steals, the argument against is low average, short career? Is he in the Hall?

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:35 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Dale Murphy, Jim Rice and Sabermetrics don't belong in the Hall of Fame either.


We should ignore certain statistics because they're newer and not well known? What kind of music do you like?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Red Sox Fan Wrote:
Rice belongs in the hall because I want him there. If I didn't want him there, he wouldn't belong.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:39 pm 
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DHRjericho Wrote:
Sen. LooGAR (D-Pedantic) Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
Sen. LooGAR (D-Pedantic) Wrote:
Steib, Stewart, Bob Welch, Mike Scott, Brett Saberhagen, Oil Can Boyd, Charlie Hough.....

All y'all 70s nigga think Jim Rice, Blyleven, and the Reds' shortstop should make it, but somehow Morris is borderline, or below board. He pitched 6 years in the 80s and won more than Ryan and Blyleven.

Next, you're gonna tell me Glavine is just "pretty good"


is more than "pretty good" your criteria for HOF. Everyone you mentioned but maybe blyleven and morris isn't deserving.

I don't think Glavine is very close to HOF material. In my opinion, Clemens, RJ, and Madduxx are the only starters nearly retirement that are deserving. What happened to your best of all-time, not best of this generation argument...or do you make an exception for your own generation of players.


No, I was saying how can you think Blyleven and Jim Rice (or whoever) IS HoF material, and not think Morris is?

Glavine has that old intangible: HE's a fucking winner. And he may yet get to 300 wins.


Blyleven had more wins, complete games, shut outs, K's, WHIP and a much better ERA.


Well, Glavine has 290 wins, and Blyeleven has 287. Blyleven has 1000 more strikeouts, but Glavine's a finesse guy. And, a fucking team leader. I know he wasn't the most DOMINANT pitcher of the era, but he's Hall material IMO.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:39 pm 
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shmoo Wrote:
DHRjericho Wrote:
He's got some great offensive numbers and was an above average/very god outfielder.

Here's a blurb from Rob Neyer on Raines


I don't think you're going to convince anyone with WARP.

So, if Raines isn't a Hall of Famer, is Lou Brock?


I'd say Brock is considering 3000 hits, 1600 runs and 900+ SB's (5 times in the top 10 of MVP voting)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:41 pm 
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DHRjericho Wrote:
shmoo Wrote:
DHRjericho Wrote:
He's got some great offensive numbers and was an above average/very god outfielder.

Here's a blurb from Rob Neyer on Raines


I don't think you're going to convince anyone with WARP.

So, if Raines isn't a Hall of Famer, is Lou Brock?


I'd say Brock is considering 3000 hits, 1600 runs and 900+ SB's (5 times in the top 10 of MVP voting)


Yeah, I mean Boggs got in.

_________________
Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:48 pm 
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Boggs lol

Hey, at least he was a scrapper.

Like having Tom Selleck take a stab at Shakespeare and really "going for it."


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:54 pm 
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shmoo Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Dale Murphy, Jim Rice and Sabermetrics don't belong in the Hall of Fame either.


We should ignore certain statistics because they're newer and not well known? What kind of music do you like?


Sabermetrics is one of the prevailing reasons I can't stand baseball geeks. There's so much more to the damn game that a bunch of silly numbers and cold calculations. It's soulless.

Fucking Otis Redding couldn't read music, but the motherfucker could sing a damn song. Hell, Albert King couldn't even read. That's why Otis Redding is Hall of Fame Material and Yngwie Malmsteen isn't.

Cal Ripken and Tony Gwynn are Hall of Famers. They fit in with Rickey Henderson (soon), Reggie Jackson, Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax.

Bruce Sutter & Bill Mazeroski shouldn't be (hell, neither should Don Sutton & Phil Neikro). And Tim Raines, Jim Rice and Bert Blyleven aren't. Palmeiro also shouldn't be, despite getting the token numbers.

Also, using a lesser Hall of Fame player like Lou Brock as a comparison doesn't really bolster the argument for Tim Raines. I mean, since Bill Mazeroski made it, shouldn't Frank White or Travis Fryman go in?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:58 pm 
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Yeah, there's more to the game that (silly) numbers and calculations, but it's still part of it.

I was just asking for people's opinions on Brock because I think he's comparable to Raines, not necessarily saying that Brock lowers the bar for others. There are definitely tons of undeserving HOFers, besides the ones you mentioned there's Phil Rizzuto, Tony Perez, Pee Wee Reese, Orlando Cepeda, Catfish Hunter... But we gotta live with it now unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:01 pm 
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Blylevin is the ultimate stat guy's hall of famer. A collector of stats that made his solid career look much better in retrospect than it actually was like Rafffy. And neither belong in the hall.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:08 pm 
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Old Kingfish Lee Wrote:
Blylevin is the ultimate stat guy's hall of famer. A collector of stats that made his solid career look much better in retrospect than it actually was like Rafffy. And neither belong in the hall.


But dudes like Jack Morris, Glavine, and Randy Johnson do (cos they are fucking Winners)

Its like arguing Manning vs. Brady in football. You videogame niggas are gonna holler Manning. People that value things like hardware, gonna go for Brady.

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Throughout his life, from childhood until death, he was beset by severe swings of mood. His depressions frequently encouraged, and were exacerbated by, his various vices. His character mixed a superficial Enlightenment sensibility for reason and taste with a genuine and somewhat Romantic love of the sublime and a propensity for occasionally puerile whimsy.
harry Wrote:
I understand that you, of all people, know this crisis and, in your own way, are working to address it. You, the madras-pantsed julip-sipping Southern cracker and me, the oldman hippie California fruit cake are brothers in the struggle to save our country.

FT Wrote:
LooGAR (the straw that stirs the drink)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Here's the case for Blyleven:

The Baseball Analysts Wrote:
Since 1900, Bert Blyleven ranks 5th in career strikeouts, 8th in shutouts, and 17th in wins.
There are only eight pitchers who rank in the top 20 in wins, shutouts, and strikeouts. Here is the list:

Wins SO SHO
Bert Blyleven 17th 5th 8th
Steve Carlton 6th 4th 13th
Ferguson Jenkins 19th 11th 17th
Walter Johnson 1st 9th 1st
Gaylord Perry 12th 8th 14th
Nolan Ryan 8th 1st 6th
Tom Seaver 13th 6th 6th
Don Sutton 8th 7th 9th

Ryan is the only pitcher who ranks higher than Blyleven in all three categories. That's right, there is only one pitcher in the history of baseball who has more wins, strikeouts, and shutouts than Blyleven. There are thousands of pitchers who rank below Blyleven in these three important measures, including tens of Hall of Famers and a half dozen -- Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Catfish Hunter, Ferguson Jenkins, Juan Marichal, and Jim Palmer -- who had overlapping careers.

Blyleven ranks in the middle of these six pitchers in ERA+ (the ratio of the league's ERA to that of the pitcher, adjusted for the effects of the home ballpark). The calculation is as follows: lgERA divided by ERA, where > 100 is above average and < 100 is below average.

ERA+
Bob Gibson 127
Jim Palmer 125
Juan Marichal 122
Bert Blyleven 118
Ferguson Jenkins 115
Jim Bunning 114
Catfish Hunter 104

As detailed, Blyleven's career totals exceed all of the pitchers in the table above and his Adjusted ERA is better than Jenkins, Bunning, and Hunter. But let's not stop with this group of pitchers. Bert's stats, in fact, are indistinguishable from the eight most similar pitchers who have already been given their day in upstate New York:

Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer
Source: Baseball-Reference.com

IP H ER BB SO HR ERA ERA+
Blyleven 4970 4632 1830 1322 3701 430 3.31 118
Group Average 4974 4541 1800 1429 3263 434 3.26 115

Blyleven's counting stats and ERA/ERA+ are almost identical to the average of these eight pitchers across the board. However, his rate stats for the three areas most controlled by the pitcher are slightly better than this exclusive group.

BB/9 SO/9 HR/9
Blyleven 2.39 6.70 0.78
Group Average 2.59 5.90 0.79

As we have all been taught along the way, "with privileges come responsibilities." Those writers who have been entrusted to vote for the Hall of Fame need to take the time to examine Blyleven's credentials. I have read and heard many convincing cases over the years "FOR" Blyleven and am still waiting for someone to present a strong case "AGAINST" him. Oh, sure, I know about those critics who claim that "Blyleven didn't win a Cy Young Award or finish in the top ten often enough" or "Blyleven wasn't a dominant pitcher in his era" or "Blyleven was no better than Tommy John or Jim Kaat and neither of them are in the Hall of Fame."

Well, I've got responses for all three in Bert Blyleven For Hall of Fame: Answering the Naysayers. I urge all voters who have yet to mark an "x" next to Blyleven's name and those who are sitting on the fence to read that column as well as Only the Lonely: The Hall of Fame Trials and Tribulations of Bert Blyleven. If these articles don't do the job, I can only say that I wish you success in booting out of Cooperstown every player not named Aaron, Alexander, Cobb, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Grove, Hornsby, Johnson, Mantle, Mathewson, Mays, Musial, Schmidt, Speaker, Wagner, and Williams because your Hall of Fame is a lot smaller than mine.


Glavine has more wins but is below him in most other categories plus Glavine has always pitched for good teams whereas Blyleven pitched for some real stinkers over his career. Blyleven is a much better candidate imo than Morris or Glavine. I'd put Blyleven in but I really don't have a huge problem with none of them making it. I can see the argument that in addition to being consistently very good for a long period of time, you need to be one of the very best (top 2 or 3?) for a short period of time. I'm not sure any of these guys really pass that test.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:
Dale Murphy, Jim Rice and Sabermetrics don't belong in the Hall of Fame either.

And I had at least two Dale Murphy jerseys as a kid. I have no beef with Tim Raines, either, but he's not a Hall of Famer. He had a hell of a career, and he should sleep well at night, but if he wants to get into Cooperstown, he can buy a ticket like the rest of us.


Keith Olberman (on Dan Patrick's radio show) made a really compelling argument for Murphy being in the Hall the other day as have a few other. I dunno, I try not to think about it because of the whole boyhood idol thing--its hard to separate fact from reality and that's not how these things should be done. I do know that he won two MVP's while playing for the shitty Braves and was the best player in the game for a (short) stretch. It just went from "Holy fuck" to "You suck" so fast...which is what actually happened to players before steroids.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:44 pm 
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Good arguments can be made for many of the players we've mentioned in this thread. Or you could use the GGar argument of "he was a winner" and convince no one. I call that the Joe Morgan argument, most recently used for Dave Concepcion.

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billy g Wrote:
Glavine has more wins but is below him in most other categories plus Glavine has always pitched for good teams whereas Blyleven pitched for some real stinkers over his career. Blyleven is a much better candidate imo than Morris or Glavine. I'd put Blyleven in but I really don't have a huge problem with none of them making it. I can see the argument that in addition to being consistently very good for a long period of time, you need to be one of the very best (top 2 or 3?) for a short period of time. I'm not sure any of these guys really pass that test.


Glavine was the best if not the second best pitcher in baseball from 1991-93; he won 20 games 5 times in an era where nobody wins 20 games, two Cy Youngs in an era where Maddux won all the Cy Youngs and a World Series MVP. I'd have taken him in his prime to win me a big game over virtually any pitcher from the 90's with the exception of Pedro.

Edit: Glavine's numbers

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:02 pm 
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I want to jump through my computer and kick BillyG's ass for saying that Tom Glavine is at best a borderline Hall of Famer.

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Yail Bloor Wrote:
Elvis Fu Wrote:
Dale Murphy, Jim Rice and Sabermetrics don't belong in the Hall of Fame either.

And I had at least two Dale Murphy jerseys as a kid. I have no beef with Tim Raines, either, but he's not a Hall of Famer. He had a hell of a career, and he should sleep well at night, but if he wants to get into Cooperstown, he can buy a ticket like the rest of us.


Keith Olberman (on Dan Patrick's radio show) made a really compelling argument for Murphy being in the Hall the other day as have a few other. I dunno, I try not to think about it because of the whole boyhood idol thing--its hard to separate fact from reality and that's not how these things should be done. I do know that he won two MVP's while playing for the shitty Braves and was the best player in the game for a (short) stretch. It just went from "Holy fuck" to "You suck" so fast...which is what actually happened to players before steroids.


Also, Murphy came out and played every damn game, like Ripken, just not as long.

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i've gone over Pete Rose's numbers a hundred times and for the life of me i can't figure out how he isn't in the hall of fame.

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Yail Bloor Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
Glavine has more wins but is below him in most other categories plus Glavine has always pitched for good teams whereas Blyleven pitched for some real stinkers over his career. Blyleven is a much better candidate imo than Morris or Glavine. I'd put Blyleven in but I really don't have a huge problem with none of them making it. I can see the argument that in addition to being consistently very good for a long period of time, you need to be one of the very best (top 2 or 3?) for a short period of time. I'm not sure any of these guys really pass that test.


Glavine was the best if not the second best pitcher in baseball from 1991-93; he won 20 games 5 times in an era where nobody wins 20 games, two Cy Youngs in an era where Maddux won all the Cy Youngs and a World Series MVP. I'd have taken him in his prime to win me a big game over virtually any pitcher from the 90's with the exception of Pedro.

Edit: Glavine's numbers


Yeah he's better than I'm giving him credit for...I'm impressed when I look at his stats and compare him to other players from the same era. I guess I just thought how can he be one of the best two or three pitchers in the game when he often wasn't even the best pitcher on his team. I also have a strong american league bias so even when he won the CY Young in 1998, I tend to think of him at best the third best pitcher that year behind Clemens and Pedro.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:09 pm 
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Elvis Fu Wrote:

Also, Murphy came out and played every damn game, like Ripken, just not as long.


I didnt remember this, but one thing Olb said was that after Murphy won his first MVP he still didnt really feel like he had everything together so he went and played Winter League ball in Florida.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:12 pm 
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billy g Wrote:
Yail Bloor Wrote:
billy g Wrote:
Glavine has more wins but is below him in most other categories plus Glavine has always pitched for good teams whereas Blyleven pitched for some real stinkers over his career. Blyleven is a much better candidate imo than Morris or Glavine. I'd put Blyleven in but I really don't have a huge problem with none of them making it. I can see the argument that in addition to being consistently very good for a long period of time, you need to be one of the very best (top 2 or 3?) for a short period of time. I'm not sure any of these guys really pass that test.


Glavine was the best if not the second best pitcher in baseball from 1991-93; he won 20 games 5 times in an era where nobody wins 20 games, two Cy Youngs in an era where Maddux won all the Cy Youngs and a World Series MVP. I'd have taken him in his prime to win me a big game over virtually any pitcher from the 90's with the exception of Pedro.

Edit: Glavine's numbers


Yeah he's better than I'm giving him credit for...I'm impressed when I look at his stats and compare him to other players from the same era. I guess I just thought how can he be one of the best two or three pitchers in the game when he often wasn't even the best pitcher on his team. I also have a strong american league bias so even when he won the CY Young in 1998, I tend to think of him at best the third best pitcher that year behind Clemens and Pedro.


The best analogy to use with Glavine is Whitey Ford just substitute Whitey's perfect game in the Series with Glavine's Series clinching one hit shutout.

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